Is there anyone who has lived with/is familar with someone with a personality disorder, such as a psychopath/ Sociopath? Could we start a discussion? I am anxious to learn more, because I am convinced my mother is suffering from same.

Wrong venue for you to get a cure or causes of your predicament,seek a profesional who specializes in the area of your problems,you are going to get mixed signal,inapproprate answers and you will be more confused than you realized.
From herbalist,rasta, mental doctor, psychologist and the likes.
Do the right thing seek help where it is focused to your troubles. Save yourself some time and money. No two problems are alike, one man mediacation is anothres poisoin.
Advises are like a pimples on the backside everybody has one.
I know this not what you wanna hear, but be careful.

Dear Sojo O:

I agree with you to a certain degree, but I think we can continue the discussion so that the rest of us can benefit and be more enlightened.

My opinion is that you should both see a professional. Those words are strong words, words used for people with serious problems, and I am not sure if this forum can help you, unless there is a professional reading your post out there who may give you help privately.

If I were you I would give a psycologist a call and have a talk about it. It could be that your mother has bipolar disorder, something that can seem quite extreme.

Good luck and I hope you can get some help...

What if my mother is convinced she's fine and refuses therapy, while she continues with negative behaviors such as lieing, manipulating, slandering, etc?

As the daughter of a difficult mother, whose redeemng character is that she loves us and cares about us, I recommend that YOU get counselling. A good therapist will help you decide which of your mother's behaviors are really not OK, which are just normal difficult, and how you can respond in either case. I recomend a Cognitive Therapist because they help you with thinking about what is really happening. They help sort out what is your opinion and what is fact. However, any therapist recommended by someone you trust is a good idea.

I would like to hear feedback from a professional even though they may not be able to give an accurate diagnosis without a history and examination/interview.

There is a lot of information available on the internet, some for the layman some in medical language.

Many of the behaviors that are accepted and sometimes applauded in Jamaica would be considered antisocial/pathological/sociopathic by the definitions available.

Our enslaved ancestors had the wiles of Brother Anancy to help survival in extreme circumstances.

Most of us keep our inner Anancy under control and rouse him only in special circumstances. Others keep him awake, alert and active in service to themselves.

Could someone clarify the difference between these forms of cold heartedness and deceit and the medically defined conditions that need profession help.

You cannot change someone else. Your mother is not your infant. But you can change your reactions to their behaviours. Or you can remove yourself from their presence and influence.

I'd be interested in more from "Turey" on his suggestion that there are behaviors -- apparently negative -- acceptable in Jamaica that would not be acceptable elsewhere. I'm interested in whether cruelty is "accepted" in the sense of being culturally "valued" as a positive and identifying national or familial characteristic or is "accepted" only because it is commonplace. My work requires "cultural competency" (I fear it is a new term for kneejerk political correctness) and I have trouble with violence and cruelty being deemed merely cultural differences and excused. It doesn't help in reducing violence and cruelty to treat it offhandedly as "accepted in [his or her] culture. Also I'd be interested in hearing more about "Anancy."

By Troubled Child on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 12:04 am:
What if my mother is convinced she's fine and refuses therapy, while she continues with negative behaviors such as lieing, manipulating, slandering, etc?

She sounds like my mother. Time & distance make it easier to deal with.

Spot on Surrey Gal.

Troubled Child you are right to reach out for advise but as Soji O councils choose your advisors and weigh their advise carefully.

Now where is the good Dr Vendreyes?

Hi Van does "cultural competency" mean that you have to have an in depth understanding of the local values as part of your job? Are you planning to work in Jamaica?

Anancy is a mythical spiderman who survives by taking advantage of situations and people. This myth originated in West Africa where most of our African ancestors came from.

Check the internet for stories of him.

Antisocial behavior is not valued or accepted as a cultural asset by the majority of Jamaicans.

The myth of Anancy in my opinion does tend to soften our condemnation of behaviors that support survival or success by trickery and deceit. I am interested in hearing the opinions of others on this.

I think that when a greater evil is overcome by use of the tricks that Anancy utilised, then applause and acceptance are common.

As deceipt, lying and manipulation become more common in national and international politics and business, maybe the medical field should be considering shifting the definitions of normal behavior?

Generally Jamaicans are quick to respond to foolishness and disrespect by reasoning and strong words which may be innapropriate in other societies, but violence is the choice of a few and they are either feared or avoided.

There is so much kindness, goodheartedness and common sense in my beloved Island that the dark side really has no chance!

Also Van, I would think that our 'wild' Irish and Scottish ancestors and Sephardic Jews brought their own politically incorrect ways of bypassing any barriers to freedom that existed.

These skills, like those of Anancy when utilised out of context for individual enrichment or to cause harm to the innocent may be considered antisocial in these times.

Research: 'ginnalship', 'crafting' and 'bandooloo'.

Forgive me for going a bit off the focus of your dilema Troubled Girl. Maybe parts of this exploration may assist.

I am an adult, thousands of miles away from my mother, with children of my own, and dealing with painful memories of a mother I loved and believed in. Now I'm afraid of her and afraid of her hurting, hating, and and manipulating other people.

My mother & sister both will lie and manipulate to make them selves look good. For a long time I just didn't deal with them at all. Now I live in another state so contact is limited and I'm so much better off.

Sometimes you just have to cut them off (even if temporarily)

Thanks for the response and information, Turey. I work in the US with diverse folks from many cultures, both international and of the several American cultures which co-exist here, often uneasily. "Cultural Competence" means that one is expected to recognize the cultural components of behavior which seems out of mainstream and may or may not bring someone into conflict with the so-called "larger society," legal, and otherwise, but would not otherwise do so in the "home" culture. For instance, some cultures see looking someone directly in the eye while talking as insulting. "We" tend to assume that if you can't maintain eye-contact, you're lying. Cultural Competence would avoid the misunderstanding.

I am interested in this discussion. Perhaps we encounter these people with personality disorders everyday (work, relatives, neighbors, etc), and we just have not been able to put a label on them. I'd like to hear more about the personality traits of these individuals. Perhaps this forum can provide insights that will better help us cope with our own abnormal behaviors, as well as those with whom we come in contact.

Dear Troubled Child,

If you are an adult, thousands of miles away from an abusive mother, you must understand that she can't hur you any longer. Any hurts she inflicts upon you now are ghosts from the past and you must treat them as such. What she does now is her own responsiblilty and not yours - and you can be loving, but from afar.
Been There

As a child I suffered a lot of emotional and physical abuse from my mother who lied, plotted and manipulated family and friends.The problem was nobody wanted to believe that a mother could be so hateful and scheming.Despite all that she had done to me I wanted desperately to be loved by her.I've always been very perceptive which is a strength and a blessing,so I could always anticipate her next move.This was the only protection I had.At 19 I came to realise that my mother couldn't/wouldn't change and I parted company with her.It's been 33 years,I'm aged 52 and have no regrets,I just feel sad that I had to go down this path.She has successfully messed up a few lives. I get news about her occasionally and needless to say she hasn't changed.I'm no psychologist but I do feel that my mother has a personality disorder.Whatever action you take has to be personal to you.However, as one who has suffered I understand your pain and I just wanted to tell you you're not alone.I wish you well.

Nowadays the global communications network does enable lying, deceit and verbal manipulation.

One may be out of physical contact and away non verbal cues but still vulnerable to electronically transmitted words and images.

I have experienced attempts at destroying my reputation and worse by phone and internet use by some with antisocial tendencies.

Sticks and stones can break your bones but words can........drive you crazy! Unless you take measures to circumvent their effect on you and others.

I am curious to know some individuals with narcisstic/sociopathic behavior. Was Hitler? Scott Peterson? Can we come up with a list of some identifiable traits?

So Van, it is possible but hopefully uncommon, for someone to be misdiagnosed with a mental illness due to misunderstood cultural behavior?

Old story...man confined for mental illness....

stayed locked up for years..

became a sort of good natured

mascot of the asylum.....

From the start he was diagnosed

based on his incoherent ramblings..

Until a Basque psychiatrist

heard him speak and recognised...

..a fellow countryman trying to be

understood!

No, I don't know why he didn't use sign language!

Dear Curious:

For one thing they manipulate/control, lie, good at smoothe words, lack conscience, full of anger/rage.

My favorite is the person who was diagnosed as being delusional, believing her body was infested with insects. This was because she told the non-native-english-speaking doctor "I have butterflies in my stomach because I'm nervous about talking to a psychiatrist."

Neither I, nor I'm sure Van, are making light of mental illness only illustrating possibilities of cultural misunderstanding.

When I am in 'foreign' I have to sometimes consciously dampen my use of strong words, ease of engaging strangers, readiness to defend self and others from innapropriate aggression, verbal appreciation of ladies and tendency to ignore stupid rules.

Imagine..."no your Honour I did not intend sexual harassment, is so wi do it ..."

Or...."yes Doc I am accustomed to raise my voice and cuss to let off vibes..."

With the lack of conscience, do some choose to
inhibit or discard conscience or are some born with reduced or no conscience?

If one chooses to disregard conscience would they not be responsible for their resulting actions as compared to one not able to judge their actions?

I am very excited yet so sad as I see this discussion--excited to see I have company; sad to see the harsh reality of growing up with a controlling, lying, vindictive witch of a mother. And she always--never fails to see herself as the victim. I loved her, trusted her, believed in her. Now I can only see the extensive damage she has done to her children, husband, relatives, and friends. I too am an adult (a half-messed up one) who must work hard to avoid negative traits that I picked up from a Monster Mother.

My question is: how do we stop someone like her her? How can she be punished? How do we shut her up--shut up her deep hole of a mouth that seems to spit out endless poisonous venom? Are these persons more common than society make it seem?

And I must disagree. I do not think this is a cultural thing. This type of behavior crosses cultural, racial, and economic boundaries.

Have you discussed this with others in your family and a competent and appropropriate professional Damaged Daughter?

In my experience working on negative traits is an important part of the process and is part of assuming reponsibility for your actions and being conscious of their possible consequences.

Good for your own mental and emotional health and those around you who these traits can in turn affect so easily.

The questions we are asking beg the presence of Dr Able, Dr Vendreyes and other healers.

Dear Damaged Daughter:

I'm so sorry about your mother. Mine (God rest her soul) was calm, cool, and collective. I think one thing that works for folks with this disorder (which I think it is) is confrontation with hard facts, where they cannot deny their negative behavior. Another thing is to cause them embarrassment around people they look up to. At any rate, they need to hear their wicked deeds repeated by people close to them.

Hi BP, such confrontation, if skilfully done and with no attached feelings of revenge or punishment may assist repentance in one that has their conscience intact and "ears to hear".

I fear that there is a risk of precipitating reactions that are not simple to deal with in those without conscience that refuse reasoning.

How dare you accuse them and try to show them up and in public, may be their reaction! They may even end up turning the situation designed to confront their behavior to their advantage.

Dear Turey:

Thanks for clearing things up for me. You make much sense. I'd like to learn more about how we can cope/assist with their behavior

I'm getting curious about this forum. I know people, (noone in my family) who have some classic "narcissistic" traits...meaning they are extremely into "themselves" not thinking about anyone else in any regard. Not just behaviour that is normally selfish, but there is something about these persons (not in Jamaica) that worry me. If it isn't about them or their social or financial gain, then they are not interested...

I have read all the books that I could get my hands on re: Scott Peterson and what made him cold heartedly murder his pregnant wife the night before Christmas Eve. It all came back to the fact that this "normal" person was brought up by his parents to get 'anything' he wanted, never having to work for anything (i.e. the USD $25,000 golf membership to a ritzy golf club that his parents paid for when he was 31)...etc. He never had to justify his negative actions, his parents made up excuses for him ever since he was a child right up to the time of the verdict in 2004.

I wonder if this behaviour is learned? Or is there some wacko gene that is passed down?

I think he (SP) grew up believing that what he did not feel like dealing with or living with, would be easy to get rid of and with no punishment attached.

I think narcissists are also serious chameleons...whether in appearance or in life. An example is the way Scott Peterson changed his personality to accomodate the people he was with in order to look "better" in their eyes. Classic narcisstic behaviour....

I think in Jamaica we as parents are a disciplinary group of people. We will not allow our children get away with bad behaviour without punishment...

It is shocking however, when a "normal" person in our eyes, turns around and becomes a murderer just like that.

I find it all very interesting...

oooh.... I have never believed that shaming someone in public is a good idea at all! That might even be considered manipulative, and maybe even seen as only self-serving (as opposed to helpful). I'd be careful with that advice. Just my two cents!

been following the story,did not want to comment.
Since budding psychiatrist want to lead you down the road to destruction I must comment.DO NOT take his advise.It would be best to treat your mom like some one with some form of dementia.If you know what I mean.People do act that way many times for many reasons.The number one reason is they needs attention,some times they don't even know what they want.My advice is you take your mom also if you have kids take them along,you all get away on a little trip spend some valuable time together,talk about your feelings in a jokinly manner but be serious behind it.Laugh about the things that sound silly.Some people may not agree but act like a friend to your mom,win her over where you'll feel comfortable talking to her about anything trust me you do that and she will listen,she will look into her self and even open up to you.Deal with it this way because if you don't her attitude will progress to the sickness you are assuming she has.

Hi BP, my perspective is based on a little experience with human vampires and most of my 2 cents posted here is from my 'gut'.

The questions raised about the causes of these behaviours have been much studied and a lot of information is available. I feel an in depth exploration should be guided by those that have a good grasp of the field and have taken academic responsibility for their opinions.

In Jamaica we have a history of "lick di pickney fi mek dem behave!" and of course our ancestral memories of horrible deterents by the economic powers at the time. We thus have a tendency to punish.

My learning process was always smoother when encouraged with kindness. I still carry feelings for the brute that enjoyed excercising his cane on us little boys. I always wondered if he was seeking emotionl release in the guise of correcting our minor sins?

BTW real vampires supposedly drink some of our blood. As long as we are not infected by vampiritis a guiness will replace lost body fluids. A human vampire squanders our time and exhausts us emotionally. Time is irreplacable, emotions sometimes difficult to settle.

I have never met Dracula or bucked up 'ole hige' but have experienced the human version and have learned to avoid them, they do not wear Draculas outfit however and are difficult to recognise!

All the best, turey.

I've been following this thread and I'm amazed by some of the advice that's been given.I have no doubt that it's all well intentioned,but it also points to the tremendous lack of understanding that exists about such people.As one whose mother fits the description very well I know that they use every situation to their advantage.Their skill at manipulating others isn't a throwaway comment and herein lies the problem, they are able to hoodwink others into believing that they are telling the truth.I've witnessed my mother cry floods of tears while those around her were clearly taken in by her deciet.I've always believed that if my mother was charged with a serious offence no jury would convict her.Going for a nice stroll with her to have a heart to heart, with the the children in tow wouldn't solve anything it would simply add to the problem. They are always one step ahead and that's why it's so difficult to keep up with then emotionally because they are a drain on your resources.Having no contact at all is still the best policy. I've been there and so I'm speaking from personal experience.

Very interesting thread and my responses are so simplistic I am concerned that some will think they are flipint, but are not.

This is how I would handles such a situation...

The reaction you have to your mother really seems to be more about what you are willing to react to, what level of chaos and control of your life are you willing to give up. While I am very thankful that I do not have this situation with my mother, I have had it with others close to me. And at some point, I had to stand up for what I felt was acceptable behavior around me and close the door on those that were not.
When that is a family member, it is tough, and some of those around you will think you are being cruel, however you have to do what is best for you. If you can be accountable, first, to yourself and what you will tolerate, then let those around you know what is accaptable with you. You have to decide what you will do if the unacceptable behavior continues. If that means closing that chapter in your book of life, so be it. Sad, yes, but in the long run, peace in your soul and standing up for what is best for you (integrity to yourself) is what typically makes us proud has humans.

Just my 2 cents. I am not giving advice, just sharing what I would do in a similar situation.

Take responsibility for your own life, and do not blame your mother for whatever may happen in your life. You do not have the time or energy to be a "victim". Your job is to kake care of your children and to take care of yourself. You have been very hurt by your mother, but you cannot change her. Do not even attempt to do it. Just go on without her. That is sad, but it is the truth.

Ahhh Gil L, family dynamics.

I have learned to tread softly and rest my tongue within the family circle.

We do not control who is within the family circle but can chose our friends.

I have witnessed the actions of an antisocial personality within a family, touch the group emotionally, physically and financially.

Standing up and identifying the problems and the problem person takes courage, calm and preparation. Or, a generation can deny the situation and live with the diminished vitality that results in the actions of one (or more) individuals.

Marching for Freedom and Liberty has its virtues, but standing up within the family circle to heal this type of collective problem is indeed one of the ways of demanding and expressing our individuality and power.

Best, turey.

One of 'my' vampires attempted use of lies to discredit me.

The attempt backfired and it had its sharp canines blunted!

What hurt the most was witnessing those that accepted the false information gleefully and continued its spread with enthusiasm. Are they demonstrating antisocial tendancies also or was it just idlesness or a bit of resentment?

My REAL friends stayed real and friends.

Time longer than rope.

Many of these creatures end up caught in their own traps and discredited and shunned.

Hi Surry Gal

You have no idea what life is like to have a mother that you look up to and value,yet she turns out to be a lamb in wolf's clothing. You have no idea what it feels like to witness your mother cheat on your father (her husband) in his bed, with a few men, yet she makes herself the victim. You have no idea what it feels like to have your mother call you degrading names all your life, putting you down, stealing your dignity. You have no idea what it is to wake up everyday and hear your mother curse your father's relative, calling them everything that is dispicable. yet she goes to church and is highly respected, and she has an army of friends who belive her lies. Girl, if you had a mother like mine you'd probably wish you were never born.

I have experienced much of what you think I have not. Yes, it has made me feel very sad and ashamed and anxious. And I often wanted a different mother. But children do not get to select their parents. I have learnt to live a good life by not trying to change what I have no power over. I have power over myself and my feelings, and that is what I have managed to change. It was not easy.

When you look at other families and imagine their lives to be so much better than yours, you often do not know of the many secret problems they have.

I have a life that is far more good than bad. I am happy I was born because if not then I would not have my husband and children.

If you know your mother is poison then stay away and do not drink from the poison.

A good book about the sort of personalities

that have been discussed here.

Emotional Vampires, Dealing with People Who

Drain You Dry. Albert J. Bernstein, Ph.D.

Best to all, turey.