The pictures here show a great deal of flooding in the Great Bay area, and we are requesting suggestions and advice on how to deal with it.

Let's start by defining what the problem is:
The natural drainage system for the area was already at capacity after two hurricanes last year, Charley with lots of water and Ivan with Category 4 wind, and one this year, a rain-filled Emily.

This latest assault from Wilma has sent in so much water that most of these reserve ponds have joined, flooding out various areas, people, and property.

The question is what can be done about it?

If anyone has additions or changes to the facts above, please post them here.

-TBNet

i really havent a clue from a practical sense, but , i have always thought that since this area see's months of drought at a time, in any given year, maybe some sort of reservour that can catch water in times like this, distributing the excess in a way as to do no damage to the community, and then the water will be there when needed. probably a very expensive proposition, but one that could be of long term benifit, not only to our area, but also if needed could be pumped back into the mains to help other areas in need.

Improve the drainage system, channel the water to the Atlantic Ocean or the Caribbean sea. Build levees, construct, canals with pump station to control and direct the flooding and water effluents into some plains and uninhabited vacant land. Improve the design and the way road are built. Consult with academicians at the Universities, mostly Engineering, Public Administration and Urban planing schools. Zone area of commercial and residential areas separately. If multi-use is needed, figure out the impact of such decision. Control population density of area prone to flooding, to save lives, properties and avoid seasonal miseries.
Get politician in the Parishes to brainstorm citizen of the affected area, they may have solutions to their predicaments.
Act of God incidents are hard to control but with a combinations of solutions from several fronts, disasters can be minimized, if not eradicated

The problem, I believe, has to be tackled in at least two ways:
Firstly, find a way to get some of the water that is currently flooding the community into the sea, immediately!
This would seem to require the use of huge pumps, which perhaps the military or the bauxite/alumina companies, or some other large industrial enterprise might have.
Those who have contacts with any of these agencies should be encouraged to pursue that option, as a matter of priority!

Then, there's the longer term fix: Several government agencies are currently engaged in a project to establish permanent canals linking the ponds to the sea via which the water in these ponds would be kept at an acceptable level.(Remember, the Great Pond does go dry sometimes, which brings another problem - dust!)
The Minister of Land & Environment, Dean Peart, has given public assurances that this matter is being pursued vigorously and that the final designs will be submitted to Cabinet, shortly, for approval.
It is intended that this project will be completed in time for the start of the next hurricane season in '06. The lobbying effort must now be intensified to have it started as soon as possible!
I believe that, even after the canals are installed, there might still be a need to have a few pumps available to drain off excess water, in the event that we have another season as unforgiving as this one.
That might be something for the community to pursue as a project, raising some of the funds ourselves, locally, while seeking to secure additional financing from the diaspora as well as NGO's and the state.
In the end, this could serve as a powerful symbol of hope and unity of purpose for a community that is going through such trying times at the moment.

With a weather cycle not likely to change in the decade -- but with plenty jostling-in-the-wings for elections next year -- TB roads, drainage -- the basic infrastructure -- is not that much different from many places on island. And roads rarely get fixed, and then only before an election. Political pressure is key and the trick is to talk to more than the chorus like everyone here. A broader strategy, an outreach if you will, is needed. Getting the story out -- getting heard in the U.S. and UK which then filter back strong to island, getting noticed via press in radio in Jamaica, even on talk shows since radio has the largest reach on island, national/international print, plus the Internet audience (outside the usual suspects like jamaicans.com, lonelyplanet.com, tripadvisor,com) and even into Blog-land
might be the start of a strategy. Pictures tell stories, like those here, and the real-life human stories, not just of the sufferin' but also of TB's entirely different way of handling things, largely on its own, locally and internationally, should be disseminated. The rebuild of the Women's Co-op is one fine story not heard outside this forum and is one exemplary story of how TB bounces back on its own. Better yet, next year's candidates for PM are now in waiting, waiting for opportunities to look good and real. Politrix and promises, perhaps. But give the devil his due -- politicians exist ALSO to be used. Invite Aloun back, invite Portia and the rest of the political posse down for a press-op. Not PJ. He's a Westmoreland, not St.Bess boy. TB needs long-term planning, a political voice and government monies spent on infrastructure, not a short-term fix made of marl dust or quarter inch thick macadam.

Thanks for all the input so soon.

Two things I get out of the above postings:

1) Something needs to be done in the very near term. If more rain comes, more misery will follow.

2) Publicizing the problem though Internet, talk shows, social networks, etc. and putting pressure on those 'in charge' like MPs might get some attention to our plight.

3) The story will travel farther if we put a human face on it.
Here are the two images from the other thread that move me most. Maybe they can be used in a positive way




Let's keep the ideas flowing.

-TBNet

Should anyone have Fergie's e-mail, you might also forward these pix to her and her daughters, just recently in TB.

keep at it guys, we made the headlines, now you will see the polititions take notice.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20051023T000000-0500_90947_OBS_RISING_W ATERS_IN_GREAT_BAY.asp

The Gleaner also has an article on the flooding.
http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20051023/news/news1.html

That water has not receded one inch up to now.

Hey people, pass the links to these stories and this thread to others via email and get the word out.

-TBNet

What can be done about the flooding in Treasure Beach? Some thoughts: -
Whilst no longer a Jamaican resident I have known TB since the 1940s and continue to visit regularly. One thing is painfully obvious: mindless development over the years brings problems and interference with natural drainage is one. Consider for a moment how many buildings and roadways obstruct natural drainaways - take a walk from, say, Jakes to TB Hotel entrance and note the lack of - and inadequate - under road culverts. Note also the old time natural drainage channels one of which, for example, flows from, roughly, Charmaine's shop to the beach between Jack Sprat and Folichon. The other, more prominent, one takes surface water out to Frenchmans Beach down past Pancho's home. But in both cases water flow is obstructed.
There are buildings IN The Great Pond which should never have been built there in the first place.
The road down from the Police Station is a nonsence.It shares its duties with nature's storm water and every year the end result is no road. The two paths, traffic & water, have to be separated.
It all boils down to CIVIC PLANNING and I don't think there's been much of that - if any. So we, long suffering residents and income providing visitors alike, suffer. One thing we cannot counter is the exceptional such as what has happened this year BUT with proper planning the effects of such deluges can be mitigated.

I was in jamaica in september, and I was really shock to see how badly the country was run.Why do the people of jamaica, put up with patterson what every his name is,And not kick him out,I am sure Jamaica would be a better place without him.The jamaica dollar, don't worth anything I am sure if they were to ues their own money and not american dollars,theirs would value more.america is for america, and jamaica should wish up and not let america run jamaica.Some part of jamaica i felt like i was in america.Lovley island but badly run.U.k

For the immediate problem:
Once a siphon gets going, it is cheap and reliable. Is there any way that wide, long hoses could be filled with water and set to drain the water into the ocean? Are there fire hoses that could do this? Many fire hoses would be needed to make much difference, or maybe some industrial source or mining organization has these types of hoses.

One of the old drainage systems used to run from the pond through Old Wharf to the ocean. It runs beside what is now Mar Blue but that seems to be blocked from construction debris from some of the buildings in Old Wharf. Maybe if that was cleared the water could run off where it should. However, they have to be careful with building canals as we don't want to dry out the pond entirely. It's important for the ecological balance of the area.

My understanding is that that drain just ran from the property behind Mar Blue to the sea and not all the way from Great Pond. Anyone out there know for sure or know how we can find out for sure?

Just heard a weather prediction of 3 more days of rain.

Certainly, when I was a child, I was aware of a section of land somewhere near Old Wharf that provided what I can only call flood overspill between the Great Pond and the sea - alligators used it as we often saw their footprints. Of course, there was not a house in sight then. Come to think of it what route into The Great Pond are the alligators (actually they're caymans) using now? Any Mar Blue residents reported missing?

I have been speaking to several persons about this drain and it seems the drain was just from the property across the street from Mar Blue and not from the pond itself as that would have meant a very deep and long pipeline.

I was at Marblue a few evenings ago enjoying a beautiful sunset and all is fine there with no crocs in site, just the best vodka martinis I've ever tasted thanks to Axel!

Great news!! Good Evening Jamaica, hosted by our very own Earl Moxam will be broadcasting live from Jack Sprat this evening from 6:30 - 8:00 p.m. Tune in on the internet!

Thanks Earl for keeping the attention on Great Bay!

P.S. A government helicopter was just circling over the flooded area.

What's URL to tune in?

The radio program is broadcast on Power 106 radio, which has an Internet feed as well.

I got these two from Google:
1) http://www.go-jamaica.com/power/
"Good Evening Jamaica
As Power 106FM works to achieve its objective of giving Jamaicans their first 24/7 all-talk radio station, Good Evening Jamaica was developed to provide quality news programming that would appeal to Jamaicans at home and in the diaspora"

2) http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Nicholas_Davis/2005/01/31/91549 8.html
"Good Evening Jamaica can be heard on the Internet at go-jamaica.com. "

From what I can tell, any of these will work with RealAudio Player:
http://www.go-jamaica.com/power/prestream-8.html
http://www.go-jamaica.com/power/prestream-11.html
http://www.go-jamaica.com/power/prestream-16a.html
http://www.go-jamaica.com/power/prestream-16b.html
http://www.go-jamaica.com/power/prestream-16c.html

If anyone has a better link, please post here.

And you just never know who you might hear on the program tonight...

Enjoy!

-TBNet

I think it can be found at:

http://www.go-jamaica.com/power/

Unfortunately, bad weather will prevent the radio crew from reaching Treasure Beach tonight, so they are postponing. Seems that Mo Bay and Kingston are getting a lot of rain.

They're now shooting for early next week. We'll keep you posted.

-TBNet

Well It definately seems the MP and others are taking a Tail spin on The Terrible events that is un folding in Treasure Beach, Enough of Fly over , Visit, and More Bs, Action is needed.

The passive mode displayed will not help either.

Great news! I got word this morning that 5 pumps have been delivered and will start pumping water out of Great Pond today. The heavy equipment was in yesterday making the path ready!

Even better news...the water has actually started being pumped out.

They cleared the land yesterday, laid the pipe today, as of 5:30 water was being pumped to just above the road on the east side of James' blue house on Old Wharf Road, west of Villa Jaja. Its running down a gully into the sea.

I'll post pics when I can.

I'm not sure if we had anything to do with this, but at least the short term solution seems to have been found.

-TBNet

Clearing the ground


Laying the pipe


Water flowing


Taken from on top of the pipe,, looking out to sea.

The Member of Parliament for the South West Area Which Includes Treasure Beach Should be charged for Grossly Neglect of His Constituents, He can afford to Purchase lands for so call Sports Complex, whilst allowing the area to be flooded out not once but TIME AFTER TIME, Again and Again.

It is also quiet Noticeable that the MP Priority is the Managing of Omar Davis’s bid for President of his Party, and not representing the people who allows him to Firstly be an MP, then a Minister. I definitely hope this is the last breed of dismal Politician we’ll see henceforth.

How did it go ? Is the water all pumped out now ?

I second what Mike said. The MP for the area should care about ALL the people in the community and not just endeavour to belly up to those in TB who are the most influential. The Sports Complex is political, though it has been packaged and sold to the residents as something in their best interests. Having a community with adequate roads, drainage, schools, health care, and infrastructure needs to come well before a Sports Complex. The Sports Complex is icing on a crumbling cake.

Well said, little Lady, For the entire 14 Years as MP for the area, all that is accomplished is NAUGHT a Meager ZERO (0).

The idea we are doing everything in your best interest is standard policy for these so call representatives, that old adage is long gone. Where is the infrasture as you explained?

The water is being pumped through a small pipe, so it will take some time for the water to go down.

But the water by the road by Kingfisher Plaza is now down enough that you can walk on the edge without getting wet.

So progress is being made.

How about some solutions which are more permanant? For instance, wouldn't it cost about the same to construct a road properly instead of having to keep redoing it over and over again? It seems as if the people who design and build the roads do not have the proper engineering expertise -- or they take no pride in what they are doing. To learn that a road that was totally washed out and ruined was "rebuilt" in only one or two days makes one suspect that the "rebuilding" is being done in an amateurish manner -- designed to fill a temporary need only until the next severe rainstorm. If you watch the road construction, sometimes you want to go over to the workers to explain that something that's only a few inches deep, with no proper drainage, is a waste of their time and the taxpayer's money. But, you know you can't interfere. The citizens who build their own homes know far more about building than the people who construct the roads.

Jamaica often 'outsources' its engineering on roadwork, waterwork, bridgework and other infrastructure to Scots and Israeli firms (cf. Sandals, the new RIU developments to come in Trelawney and elsewhere). Control the government purse and one controls the sourcing. 'Inspire' the proper MP to do his/her proper job and one might just see results longer-term in lasting effect, beyond the elections to come. In other words, vote the right person in to represent local interests less collusively.

More good news.

There is a second pipe line now working AND they added some length to both pipes so that their outlets are between the road and the sea now. Before the water had to cross the road to get to the sea. This should help the erosion problem that was starting.

I'll hopefully get some pictures today and upload them here.

The two pipes, one longer than the other. In the background you can see the marle they've put over the pipe where it runs over the road. Previously, the pipe ended just above the road.


The longest pipe now reaches almost to the shore line.


The water is finding its way to the sea, coming out onto the shore where ever it can. When the pipe was above the road, the water was coming out to shore in spots all the way from the east end of JaJa to the west of James' blue house. Now its in a much more confined area, fortunately.

What is the situation around Ft. Charles?
thanks

the positive vibes you want to spread are going too far now. The 3 little pumps (or did you get 2 more yesterday?) and sewage pipes and "trial and error" knowledge are NOT good news. It´s a scandal. The mp and minister for water and housing should be fired for gross neglect, incompetence and this layman approach to a serious problem.
complacency did not help your case in the past and certainly won´t help now.

I agree with "soon come".From what I hear from friends in Gt Bay the situation has hardly altered. Many are still unable to return to their homes and they are still cut off ,with no road access .There are no pumps or pipes dealing with the flooding from "Maisies pond" and it seems that this area of Gt Bay has been neglected by the government and sadly by some of the reporters on TB net. Maybe the fact that tourism is not so important in this part of TB could explain why pumps etc have not arrived there yet but the locals there deserve help just as much if not more.
I understand that the locals had attempted to create a route via Tides Reach Lane and via the bush past Vikings house to Kingfisher plaza in order to use in emergency ( at their own risk)which had helped to get much needed supplies to the far end of Gt Bay.However I was disappointed to hear that certain residents had objected and that route has now been closed to those who needed it.So again its the ordinary people of Gt Bay who suffer.
It seems that the tourist dollar and the influence of certain villa owners extends only to satisfy their needs but not that of the whole community of Gt.bay.I pray that things will change soon for the better and that help arrives for ALL soon.Keep strong!

Let me get this straight, 'soon come' and 'UKconnection". There is water being pumped out when there was none before, and its a negative thing??? Because its not enough? Or its not 100% perfect? Or its not helping 'your people' right away?

I disagree. I would say there is improvement. Sure it could be better, but it is a start.


I was learning a lot more when people were actually giving ideas for SOLUTIONS rather than just complaining about what others haven't done.

The MP The MP For St Elizabeth please get the help for every community in your Parish.The roads are the worst i have seen them.People are suffering because they have no place to live after the bad weather.Help the people-Help the people.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you, as you struggle with the aftereffects of nature and humanities actions. we will come and stay in December and january. tom and jeanie

I feel that "sigh " has completely misunderstood the point I was trying to make.
Of course I am pleased that progress of sorts has been made in certain areas of Gt bay but think its unreasonable for parts of the community who are not receiving any help to feel positive or grateful for this.
I am simply responding to what I have heard from many people in that area ( not just "my people") and answering their plea that their situation be highlighted on this forum.
Surely you would want people from outside TB to have a balanced view on the situation and not be misled to believe that the local government is doing all it should to help ALL areas.
Whilst any help is better than none, I feel all communities in Gt bay have a right to expect and receive help in equal measure.If they continue to be accept makeshift,short term solutions to the problems over flooding and the poor state of the roads then no lasting progress will be made.

Although you may feel that you have "learnt more" through the discussions about possible solutions on this forum ,I find it frustrating that you feel it is upto us to find the solution.It should be the responsibilty of elected MPs for the area to organise appropriate engineers to solve what has been a longstanding problem in this part of St Elizabeth.
I have great admiration for how the whole community of TB has coped with this "disaster" and have done my best to draw attention to there situation here in the UK.They deserve more than a "knee-jerk" reaction from the government and have every right to expect the government to face upto the responsiblities and duties for which they were elected.To ask that they be satisfied with anyting less will ensure that no real and lasting progress will ever be made.

Sigh - I disagree that 'UK connection'& 'soon come' are complaining or saying what is being done is negative - to me they are simply commenting on the reality of the situation which I believe we all need to know/learn about. Its good to get the whole picture not just the nice bits! Of course its a start and it is postive but lets not rest at that!

@Sigh
with all due respect but you are not getting it straight. the question is not, if it´s perfect or negativ or a start or whatever.
ideas for short and longterm solutions have been presented. and obviously, adhoc solutions have already been ignored by the powers that be. what do you think gonna happen to the rest if you applaude an inadequate "little something" as the great thing?
we, the people, have played Sleeping Beauty far too long, allowing the MP to grossly neglect the infrastructure of this area.
It´s the worst scenarion ever, yes, but flooding, breaking downs of main roads etc. have occurred before. And???
Complacency and clapping hands won´t get us nowhere!

Censorship, Censorship, Censorship one would think we’re in the pre-Nikitia Khrushchev Era, as great minds, thoughts, and constructive critics are being suppressed here.

It is a pity to see what has happened to GBay. That was home to the MP for more than a decade.Pity he can't find it in himself to do something for the people that did so much for him

As well as aking about solutions to the infrastructure problems in TB can anyone provide an update on the health situation?? Coming from a health workers background I'm really concerned about the health risk all that stagnant water poses. as well as the risk form increased mosquito population.
Are the ponds being "sprayed" regularly?? If not ,WHY?
Have any ministers from environmental health assessed the area and what are they doing about the situation.?
I know my contacts in Gt Bay having been calling the dept to demand action themselves and would beg others to do the same !!If the community of TB stands togther on this ,as I know they can,then the chances of getting results will be much greater.
Glad to hear today that the weather seems to be improving in TB -you all deserve a break.Keep strong and well!

Reports from Great Bay say the water has receded enough for some traffic to pass on the road now.

If anyone has more detailed info, please give us an update here.

-TBNet

work being done to clear flooding. not 2 pipes trickling down.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20051106T190000-0500_91963_OBS____M_WOR K_ON_DRAINS_SHOULD_EASE_FLOODING__SAYS_FERGUSON_.asp

This is an order placed on the MP of south west St Elizabeth, Donald Buchanan the Minister of Water, along with Dean Peart the Minister of Environment, and Robert Pickersgill the Minister of Transport and Works from the Prime Minister of Jamaica for Kennedy Grove residents.
At a meeting yesterday, Labour and Social Security Minister Horace Dalley told residents that Prime Minister PJ Patterson saw the report last Monday, and had instructed Water and Housing Minister DONALD BUCHANAN, Transport and Works Minister Robert Pickersgill and Land and Environment Minister DEAN PEART to have the matter resolved immediately.

KENNEDY Grove residents yesterday requested a meeting with the government's infrastructure committee, which is expected to outline to them the findings and recommendations of a technical team that last month examined the flood-prone area.

Please note: Technical Team examined area LAST MONTH. Issue ordered to be resolved THIS MONTH. Not next year or next hurricane season.

Treasure Beach has been examined and re-examined
Every year for the last 14 Years.

The situation in Treasure Beach is worse than those depicted here, one have to ask, where is the URGENCY displayed by the MP and his government to resolve the Grave Problems in Treasure Beach.

Here is the link for that story:

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20051106T220000-0500_91997_OBS_KENNEDY_ GROVE_RESIDENTS_DEMAND_MEETING_WITH_INFRASTRUCTURE_COMMITTEE.asp

Any update on the flooding around Maisies pond area of Gt Bay - are there any pipes in here yet is the road passable for regular traffic. Also whats the situation re health issues - have the ponds been sprayed?
Any news would be appreciated as info coming out re this area appears to have slowwed down?