http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20110814/focus/focus2.html

The above link is from Sunday's Gleaner. Nice to see the change in attitude taking place.

This is what you call progress? This is degradation. It is not only Standard and Poor that has down graded the mighty USA but God has done so also. The only progress here is the fulfilment of the scriptures, These things must happen before the end cones.

The rules of this board demand that we respect one another's religious beliefs. But why do the rules not also demand that we respect one another's NON-beliefs? Why can't this board be free of ALL references to religion, or to non-religions?

Would not that be the fair way to go?

OH My !!
These two topics again.
Homosexuality/Church/ and Jamaica !!
It is about to get HOT in here :>)
ONE LOVE !!
Mike

Arguably, NAL, religion is one of, if not, the most important thing in many people's lives, so why should discussion or mention of it be taboo? If we follow your line of thinking there would very little to talk about,as we show 'respect'for each other's opinion so much that we become afraid to express our own.

America has carried this principle to the most ridiculous extreme. [edited by
TB.Net] for many people have been told that religion was used to control us as slaves.

So with no moral compass, no wonder we have/are becoming more and more brutal.

Some of us don't need a book to tell us what's right and wrong. Somehow we know to be nice to others all by ourselves.

I'll throw my voice behind the idea that religion should be discussed in terms of "this is what I believe" not "if you don't believe this, then you're a bad person"

Hmm...

i go along with Somehow when he says we ought not need to be told what is right and wrong. I remember an ethics course in college. Our main textbook went on in detail about why we do the right thing. The conclusion was: we do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, not because of any outside rules or books.
In effect, if we adhere to the golden rule, that is enough to "keep us in line."

So i would not agree with Spooky Dude when he says or at least implies we need a "moral compass" as defined by some religion. Spooky: would you allow as much space to agnostics or atheists?

I would like to share a point of view that helped me to change my attitudes towards people of 'alternative lifestyle.'

We cannot label people as 'homosexual,' as the church does. If someone is gay, but they never have intercourse, then that person is not, by definition homosexual. However they are still 'gay.' Do you see what I mean? A gay person can never have sex their entire life, but they are still gay.

It is apparent to me that societies have a need to ostracize certain groups of people.

In the past, it was 'white' groups hating 'blacks.'
Society need a group of people to hate - so this society now puts energy into hating gays.

The hypocrisy of this attitude is outstanding.

No one is responsible for the way they are born.
Jamaicans above all people should understand this.

In the USA and other countries gays are accepted and it is not even an issue anymore.
Now, transexuals are the group that receives much negative feedback. But that is changing too.

I would have to agree with NAL.

How do we know what is right? By knowing what is wrong.

It is wrong to hate a group of people based on things beyond their control. Hate is an ugly emotion period.

Why waste your time and energy?

I am happy to see leaders of the Treasure Beach community who are outspoken on this issure, supporting the gay community, and raising awareness on this issue.

Jahili
"Gay Marriage" is a HUGE issue right now in the USA. Homosexauls are still not accepted in alot of places, and by alot of people in the USA !
ONE LOVE !!
Mike

I hear that there are some that would speed the so called end times in order to assist the fulfilment of a prophecy. Others would eliminate or diminish those who do not follow their book. Yea, many books. Many conflicts about which is right.

For a parasitic microbe (on a cosmic scale) that is currently an infection on the skin of planet Earth, Homo Sapiens can certainly cook up some doobies of magical thinking. We are equiped with a conscience, intelligence and intuition, we are all free to use these powers or not.

Here are some other deviations from the sexual norm, Paraphilias: http://alturl.com/pcs5b.

Psychopathica Sexualis by Krefft-Ebing is a major study done on the strangenesses that can accompany sexuality. We are the only animal that has psychosexual problems and has defined norms for the act. We are indeed a strange lot.

Yes, Tolerant. And again, the Golden Rule is just about the only rule we need for just world.

Though I am an atheist, I did have my son in a Catholic school for his first two years, because the local public schools in our town were abysmal. His first-grade nun was delighted to have the kid, because he'd been reading on his own since he was still not yet four, and at my request, when his teacher was teaching the first graders reading, she just shoved my kid into a corner with a pile of books. At Thanksgiving, the kids, grade 1-8, all brought in canned goods, and while they paraded through the little auditorium, depositing their offerings on the stage, they sang, over and over, a song with the lyric, "For whatever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me...When I was thirsty, you gave me to drink. When i was hungry, you gave me to drink.. etc" I found that moving then, and still find it moving.

Religion is the greatest oppressor of mankind. More lives have been lost over the cause of religion than any other single thing.

@ Vawhn. "It is not only Standard and Poor that has down graded the mighty USA but God has done so also".I didn't know that the God you serve dealt in retribution. I thought that he was a god of love and peace. Take a deep breath {edited by TBNet}. People of different sexual orientation are people and therefore should be treated as such. The ignorance exhibited by Jamaicans against gay people is the same ignorance holds up back from becoming a more productive society. It is not possible for us to become a first world country while still holding on to third world laws and believes. This is a step in the right direction. The next step is to remove the buggery laws from the books, them we can say there is real progress.

Agnostics and atheists can have as much space as they like, I would not deny them that. I would welcome the opportunity to debate their ideas. I can understand the Agnostic to a point, but the Atheist is harder to understand. I can't see how a human being could deny a Supreme entity who is responsible for his existence and the existence of the magnificent creation we see around us. The name is not what matters. God is the English name by which he is known to us. The Agnostic is a little bit different, he I think is trying to be 'smart' and challenge us to prove the existence of God. Well, no one can offer proof in the scientific definition of proof, but there is ample evidence of the existence of God. But guess what, the simple truth is that BELIEF which is derided by many intellectuals, is the key to this whole business. It is folly to the 'wise', but if the 'wise' wised up and realize how much they don't know, and start believing, they would be surprised how much more would become plain.
People should not be afraid to discuss religion, their future could depend on it.
Somehow: I don't think that we should think you are a bad person if you don't believe, but I am not sure we know how to be nice to each other all by ourselves. We tend to be nice to someone who is nice to us, and can be lethal to someone who offends us. My religion makes me love my enemies! That is very different. Nal you know from experience that we don't do the right thing because it is the right thing to do! Be honest!

The greatest word in the English language is LOVE. Greater love has no man than this that a man lay down his life for his brother. Love thy neighbor as thyself. God is Love; if you know not Love then you know not God. If you hate Gays, then you are not of God.

Our "human nature" dictates our behavior more often then our "religious beliefs".
ONE LOVE !!
Mike

Once again, we understand people's passion on this subject matter. We also understand stating your opinion in a respectful way. We will not be understanding of profanity, rudeness, vulgarity, hatred, etc. no matter what side of the argument you are defending.

Once again, here are the guidelines for this forum. Once again, if you do not like these guidelines find another forum to post your thoughts.

Hey, Spooky Dude, how, might I respectfully ask, do you know I know from experience that we don't do the right thing because it is the right thing to do?

Perhaps I should modify what I said, previously, when i referred to an ethics textbook which, after going through reasons given for doing the right thing, ended up concluding we do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, and could kill. Perhaps it might have been more accurate to say that we OUGHT to do the right thing because it is the right thing do to, and not because a book tells us we must do thus and so. In short, and forgive the repetition, we would go a long way by just adhering to what we call the golden rule. We ought not to do the right thing just because we might get "caught" if we don't, or face the wrath of The Law if we don't. To give a perhaps lame example: the law says we must not exceed the speed limit. If we do, we may be fined, or whatever. But some of us don't speed because we think it is a bad thing to do so. There are laws against child-beating, but a good parent doesn't beat his child because he fears the law, but because he knows it is not right to do so.

And i agree with MikeyMike: our "human nature" dictates our behavior more often than our "religious beliefs."

And someone in this thread, above, pointed out all the horrors perpetrated in the name of religion. Consider Jim Jones and the Kool-Aid mass murder of his 900 followers. Consider the more recent horrific slaughter of 70 Norwegians, in that peace-loving country, by a religious fanatic/screwball.

And for larger-scale examples: 1.5 million Armenians in Turkey were slaughtered by the Ottomans in 1915 - not so very long ago in the history of the world - in part because they were Christians. And how about Hitler and his genocide against Jews? And how about the Crusaders, who rampaged the countryside dashing out the brains of babies who were not Christians? And what about the far-right religious who impose their "moral" rules on the rest of society by blowing up abortion clinics in their determination to "protect" life? Oh, and what about the effort in Texas to install in public schools the teaching of creationism alongside evolution? I gather some would even pitch out the science of Evolution and teach just creationism.

Sometimes you can't help wondering if the world is going mad.

A great deal of horrors in the name of all kinds of things, none of which have been done by genuine christians as far as I know. That is not to say that a christian is incapable of bad deeds, and as a matter of fact most christians are in constant struggle with the evil that exist without and within.
The world has been going/gone mad for a long time, and what you see as normal I may be seeing as mad. Which do you think is crazier, Evolution or Creation? Do you know of anything just happening 'out of thin air' other than magic? Don't you see intelligent design all around you my friend?
You are the exception, being inherently good and I do believe only one man could make that claim and I know you are not him.
Anyway pal,Hitler was not a christian and he did not slaughter the Jews because of religion.
The Golden Rule is good, but when others don't follow the rule, what then?
I am surprised you left out the 9/11 horrors or the Rwanda massacres or the Biafra/Nigeria horrors.
How do I know that you know that what you are saying is false? Because I am human!

If you are asking me if I think, as creationists would have it, that the world was created six thousand years ago, I'd say that notion flies in the face of sound science, which has proven otherwise. When it comes to trying to make sense of the universe, I cast my lot with science.

I don't know that I see anything I would call "intelligent design" all around me. i see nature, I see what man has wrought, I see lots of things, but i don't know in what sense you are using the phrase "intelligent design." That implies, perhaps assumes, there is a designer, and that he/she/it is intelligent.

Well, I couldn't very well list all the horrors, genocides the world has seen. But i don't buy what you say about Hitler persecuting Jews not having an anti-Jewish-religion component.

You appear to be flattering me when you say I am "inherently good," and of course I would disagree with you. i never claimed that.

But wait, THEN you say I am not that one man who can claim to be. I presume you mean Christ. No one else? What about all those saints? What about the Blessed Virgin Mary? - to continue along your line of thinking.

I am not sure what a "genuine Christian" is. How about Michelle Bachman? Would you consider her one?

Here is something on Hitler and his views on religion and cults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views

As we are on charimatic antisocial personas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasputin

Check their eyes!

Thanks, Turey; saved me time digging out proof that Hitler was an anti-semite. Indeed he was. (Not that we should need further proof that he was.)

Whoops! In my haste, i mispoke. My second paragraph shoujld read: "And by the way, it is gratifying to see that this string has not been CENSORED." (not, as I had it, "posted.") Everyone has been acting civil.

Anyway, thanks to the webmaster for not censuring.

Ah, censorship... tricky biz! :-)

Nal I can't speak for Michelle Bachman, and why do you interject her into this discourse? Only she can tell you that.
No man is perfect or sinless, including saints and the blessed virgin Mary.
I genuine christian believes in Christ and follows his teachings, having acknowledged and repented of his/her sinfulness. With the help of the Holy Spirit...and you are aware of the existence of other kinds of spirits I presume... he will endeavour to live a life reflective of the teachings of Jesus. As human beings we are not always successful, but take it from me no one who has become a christian will commit the horrors of which you speak. THere are many people going to church, not all of them are true christians. There are leaders of the church who are leading people away from the teachings of the bible they profess to believe in.
I presumed you were intelligent and therefore would understand the concept of intelligent design. Obviously I was referring to nature and not what man has done. I would tell you what I think of an atheist but I run the risk of being edited, but I what I can say is I pity your condition, and hope that your eyes will be opened to see the light!

Well, Spooky Dude, no need to pity my "condition."

How do you determine which are the "true" Christians, and which are not? Those who (for instance) blow up abortion clinics would say they are "true" Christians, and believe, apparently, that other Christians should be joining their ranks.

I am not "aware of the existence of other kinds of spirits."

I may have minsunderstood: I thought you said (in effect) that Christ was sinless. And what sin did the blessed virgin Mary commit? I was raised Catholic, and we were taught that her soul was completely without any stain of sin, venial or mortal. Unless having a child out of wedlock stained her soul. But of course, that was a special circumstance; she was chosen by god to bear his son, and Joseph was there to be, as near as I could get it, a kind of surrogate father. In fact, I do now recall that Joseph was on the scene to "prevent scandal." I remember a nun telling us that, though I had no idea at the time what the heck that meant.

I guess the only other thing your post above has me wondering is this: is a person not capable of doing good without the aid of the Holy Spirit? Though I suppose before answering that, we would have to agree on the definition of the Holy Spirit. And I guess that would not be easy to do.

A man apparently without a soul is to be pitied,sir, as he is missing out on a lot.
People blowing up abortion clinics, think that is the right thing to do,seeing that the people running abortion clinics are doing the wrong thing. A true christian cannot do that. But you show more concern for the abortionists than you do for their victims. Both groups are wrong, period.
I accept the teaching that Christ was sinless, but I have nothing to indicate that that applied to Mary. The Catholics teach that, because their intellect tells them that there is a contradiction, because Jesus was born of Mary who was a sinner like the rest of us. No carnal desire was present in Immaculate Conception, so there is no need to want to 'sanitize' Mary. This is what happens when we bring 'intellectual superiority' to bear on teachings of the bible, we add to satisfy our unbelief. We scoff at the idea of 'virgin birth' saying it is impossible, but how many of us stop to consider the miracle of ordinary conception, where in nine months the most complex entity results from the joining of two microscopic cells! And we have no idea when the spirit, the essence of a human being enters into the equation, remarkable, isn't it?
The Holy Spirit is what God uses to replace the one you got when you were born, you become a 'new man'
I am sure we are all capable of doing the right thing sometimes 'because it is the right thing to do', but many times what we think is the right thing is not the right thing at all. Like Blowing up clinics! Peace and love my brother, go on a quest to find the truth, but don't deny God, seek knowledge of Him and you may find it and it will change your life.

Spooky Dude...
Holy Spirit...
Duppy....

I heard the following interview on Krista Tippet's Sunday morning show entitled "Being" on NPR yesterday morning. I found it to be very interesting and hope some of you will listen to it and enjoy it as much as I did. I think it is very pertinent to the conversation going on here now. Convicted civility is the key phrase in this interview.

Richard Mouw challenges his fellow conservative Christians to civility in public discourse. He offers historical as well as spiritual perspective on American Evangelicals' navigation of disagreement, fear, and truth.

http://www.publicradio.org/tools/media_player/popup.php?name=being/programs/2011 /07/28/20110818_restoring_political_civility_128

Well, Gwen, I am trying not to giggle. :-)

About all I can now think to say is that Spooky Dude apparently thinks that everyone should see things the way he does.

And now I'll withdraw from this particular fray, since Spooky Dude and I clearly have no common ground for further discussion.

By the way, Spooky, what makes you think I'm a brother?