The GOJ has allowed an artificial beach in Blue Lagoon…

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/JET-rejects-fake-beach-at-Blue-Lagoon

Thank you for keeping your eyes and ears open JET. Lets hope the PM puts a stop to this!

It looks real nice. Miss McCaulay not everything artificial is bad. Our existence owes a lot to artificiality! If we cannot enjoy our natural resources why preserve it. If we can imitate nature, what's wrong with that. Haven't you been bemoaning the fact that the Negril Beach is losing its sand, therefore losing its beauty. So now, someone is giving nature a hand and more people will be able to enjoy the Blue Lagoon.
What you should ensure is that it is properly regulated.

Dear Spooky Dude,
It seems to me we have no respect for natural beauty. There are no access problems to Blue Lagoon - a parish council road leads straight to it. The beach will not give any more people access and is in fact decorated with a "Keep out - no trespassing" sigh.

Blue Lagoon was once one of our most unusual and beautiful places and in my view, should be maintained as such. It did not need improvement. We have few such places left.

"Improvement" is what has caused the beach erosion in Negril, by the way...

I can only end with - sigh.

Diana from JET



Diana from JET

Diana,

I agree with you.

Jah make natural beauty. Cannot improve on that.

Well, Miss D. that white sand beach, in my view, adds a nice little touch to the place.
Maybe you should try and find out where the sand came from.Could it be from that beach in Trelawny?
Now there's an angle you could pursue!I see the old typo got you a sigh for a sign! I guess you really wanted to sigh! Sigh.

Another private 'beach'! Said with a big SIGH

For those who love wacking our way into natural, awe-inspiring natural beauty, Blue Hole (or the Blue Lagoon) lost lots of its special, secluded charm from years past with the arrival of the restaurant at waters edge and the luxury villas nearby. I believe Butch Stewart's (Sandals Resorts) daughter owns one of those a-bodes.

However, the villa that obnoxiously impinged on the sanctuary feeling of this luminous, cool-spring coyaba-spot was built by Robin Moore, who reputedly wrote some of his novel, The French Connection, there.
Not a wise move, according to the hurrican gods (one named Gilbert), who swept away Lord Moore's pride & joy, leaving mere foundations...never to be rebuilt, but located in the area where the sand has been trucked in for the sake of someone's PRIVACY!
Bye Bye! Sweet Birds of Youth!

www.explorejamaica.com.jm/blue-lagoon-jamaica.html

VIDEO: A Blue Lagoon Villa
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMhxJusyELs

Big Deep-Ups to David Lee: Jamaica's Great Free-Dive Champ:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZBKveShd0s&feature=related

Spooky Dude, you are spooking me out. Diana is right.

Moonsan Villa seems to still exist and appears to be a large B&B. Kind of funny they feature TVs in all the rooms. Which is the one destroyed by Gilbert?

Both a sigh and a sign. On Easter Monday, there was a huge party on the fake beach, complete with a sound system that could be heard in San San Bay, etc. Soon all of Jamaica will be merely a venue - no nature, no beauty and no peace.

I do not myself think Robin Moore's villa was obnoxious, as it was hardly visible from the Lagoon. I believe it still exists, but now I am going to check - I am doing a little history of the Lagoon. The restaurant right on the water, now derelict, is a different matter.

I share all the other concerns about Blue Lagoon and that area of the San San coast - boats in BL, the "toll" exacted by men just to drive down the parish council road, overdevelopment, dumping, fires, tree cutting, threats to Pellew Island, etc. I was there recently, got up early, kayaked into the Lagoon, was loving the peace and quiet, averting my eyes from the fake beach, when a man shouted at me from the derelict restaurant - AII! AII! Miss! YOU! YES YOU! WANT RENT A BOAT??

(If you want to know what visitors think about what Blue Lagoon has become, check Trip Advisor...)

I have tried to find out where the sand for the fake beach came from. All I have got from NEPA is that it was there already, which, anyone who knows BL knows is not true.

I see in yesterday's Gleaner the Portland Parish Council saying they had no knowledge of the beach - I do not believe this, as several people have told me that they tried to get the Parish Council to intervene without success.

You really have to ask - what is the point of these regulatory agencies, which our taxes support? Might as well close them down and declare "development" anarchy and open season on the environment - because that is the true situation.

Diana from JET

tZ: If you click to the explorejamaica link cited, you'll see an aerial view of a strip of villas facing the sea, then whoosh, there's an inlet to the Blue Hole...Portland's Masterpiece, among many!

Those are millionaire villas, and even though Portland, the most easterly parish often suffers the greatest hurricane damage, those buildings are always repaired. (they fetch high rental fees)
The sand beach that Diana has spotlighted is at the "back edge" of the lagoon, where somehow-someway the American writer, Robin Moore, had built his villa that was destroyed by Gilbert.

That's within the province of Blue Hole which ought to be upsetting to all who recall its pristine nature and which JET's Ms McCaulay doesn't exaggerate, when she flags another natural- heritage memento de-spoiled in the continuation of Jamaica for Sale.

LINK:
www.jamentrust.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=95&Itemid=117

Diana: Perhaps you misunderstood me about the deceased Robin Moore's house, formerly perched in a "sweet spot" spying into the Blue Hole. The dwelling wasn't obnoxious...it's the fact that Moore was able to obtain a title for his "tract", setting a precedent that could be followed by others bearing moneybags.
I'm a bit envious that Moore got away with it, but the next impulse, after you've got yours, is to try keep everyone else out with all sorts of restrictions for entry and use.
Who owns the lagoon shore & adjacent propeties...the Villas of San San or some other such private entity?

Moore probably chose a contextual design off the lines of what the Jamaican architect, Ann Hodges, might have derived.

Example of Annexes to GEEJAM studios above San San: Ann Hodges

www.reallife.ky/index.php/rldesign/340-luxury-caribbean-getaways-geejam-in-jamai ca

www.geejamhotel.com/geejam-hotel-accommodation.html

Ms McCaulay, you ask "what is the point of these regulatory agencies?" I've been asking the same for some time. Parish Councils, including ours in St Bess, seem nothing more than rubber-stamping entities controlled by monied influence. While we're at it, anyone has anything new on "the wall" in Old Wharf, or improvements on the canal to protect the houses that are threatened there?

I am spooky in name only,[edited by TB.Net]Natural woman it may surprise you to learn that all women are. You are not alone! What is spooky is over zealous environmentalists hung up on their concept of beauty which many people don't share. When a hurricane ravishes the vegetation it is a natural occurrence, would you say we should leave the mess as it is because it is the work of nature? Or the god of hurricane as zed suggested? No! We clean up the mess. We have dominion over the things of nature,and that means we use them for our benefit.What you can be is a watch-dog to ensure that no abuse takes place,but to think you are the repository of all that's good and appropriate and make demands is arrogant and selfish in a way.
Hacking your way into beauty spots does destroy some part of nature,but I guess there is some pride in knowing that not everyone will be able to hack their way in; which gives it some amount of exclusivity, which I suspect is part of the agenda.

Funny Robin Moore story from Portland -- I make no claims for its truth, just know that it circulates:

Apparently he was a wild scallawag and on the outs with his family for years. When he had his publishing success and settled in Jamaica, he decided to show them how respectable he had become, so he invited them to his "gift of Boston Bay to the people of Jamaica." Everyone showed up, big to-do, and he made his speech of generosity.

The then-head of the Parish Council stood up to give the thanks. But what he said was:"The people of Portland are grateful for Mr. Moore's decision to share some of his good fortune with us. But we would like to point out that the beach already belongs to us. However, what we could certainly use is some facilities -- showers, toilets, perhaps a restaurant -- and we would be most happy if Mr. Moore could provide those."

Of course, with his family standing right there, what could Robin Moore do? And so, the publicly owned facilities at Boston Beach came to be!

Makes me wonder where the canny descendants of that kind of Parish Council member are...

Great story about Robin Moore! Boston Beach is also now a mess, in my view. I am trying to write a little history of BL, so stories are welcome. There is another one of Robin Moore water skiing holding a white piglet. No idea if true. I remember him when I was a child, primarily because he wore what was then a scandalous bathing suit.

Spookey Dude, sorry, I don't agree that we have dominion over nature. I think it's a dangerous idea that has led to all kinds of tragedy. See New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina. Close to home, talk to those folks who bought houses in Nightingale Grove and then watched their real estate flood to the eaves.

Cannot say why you find me "arrogant and selfish" but that's life. If you take a stand on anything in Jamaica, invariably you are attacked on personal grounds.

To Agida, I don't think there has been any development on either the wall or the canal. The wall is built and permitted, so nothing more will happen with that. As for the canal, last I heard NEPA had issued an enforcement notice that it was to be completed, NWA said they had no money, and that was the end of that. But I stand to be corrected if there is something more up to date.

To Zed, I think at some point the whole of Goblin Hill and the San San coast, including Blue Hole, was subdivided and sold to private landowners. The titles for the lots on the hill came with a small lot on the coast which was supposed to be for a cabana or boat house. But over time, those beach lots were sold off and the dwellings built. Again a regulatory issue. As I said, I am trying to confirm these stories, so if anyone has any documentation, please let me know.
Diana from JET

I remember that restaurant, there were no prices on the menu, and you know what my mother used to say "if you have to ask the price then you cannot afford it"!! Needless to say we didnt eat there.

At this rate there wont be any 'natural' tourist places to visit.

Bye the way has vegetation grown over that awful wall built at Old Wharf yet?

Diana...near the inlet to Blue Hole, close to shore, where the the Villas are located, is one of the most beautiful beds of seagrasses waving golden & shimmery under water. When first snorkeling there, the water clarity was amazing and oh so peaceful.
Out of my imagination, I tended to call these plants "eel grasses" since I was surprised by the graceful movements of eels which would appear out of the camouflage.
Is it possible that any eels in those waters are "electric"...and doing the slide?

The leaves of the grasses were ribbon-like, and I believe, in other locations, they might be known as turtle glass.
Do you know much about this seemingly fragile environment and their function in providing refuge for fish and organisms and keeping the water so clear. How do they, in saline waters, interact in close proximity to the spring-fed Blue Lagoon? Is the fresh water fom the Lagoon favourably affecting the growth & sustenance of the sea-grasses?

Fond memories of after-dive e-mergence from underwater sights to rest at the deck of one of the villas, during cocktail hour, & be handed a daiquiri. OPA!

WIKI: ("Don't loose that number!")
Disturbances and threats:
Natural disturbances such as grazing, storms, ice-scouring, and desiccation are an inherent part of seagrass ecosystem dynamics. Seagrasses display an extraordinarily high degree of phenotypic plasticity, adapting rapidly to changing environmental conditions.

Seagrasses are in global decline, with some 12,000 sq mi lost during recent decades. The main cause is human disturbance, most notably eutrophication, mechanical destruction of habitat, and overfishing.
Excessive input of nutrients (nitrogen, phosphorus) is directly toxic to seagrasses, but most importantly, it stimulates the growth of epiphytic and free-floating macro- and micro-algae. This weakens the sunlight, reducing the photosynthesis that nourishes the seagrass and the primary production results.

Decaying seagrass leaves and algae fuels increasing algal blooms, resulting in a positive feedback. This can cause a complete regime shift from seagrass to algal dominance.

Accumulating evidence also suggests that overfishing of top predators (large predatory fish) could indirectly increase algal growth by reducing grazing control performed by mesograzers such as crustaceans and gastropods through a trophic cascade.

Humans often drive boats, which in turn can make disrupting noises, and sometimes the blade propeller can tear or cut the sea grass if it's shallow enough.
The most-used methods to protect and restore seagrass meadows include nutrient and pollution reductions, protection using marine protected areas, and restoration using seagrass transplantation.

To Zed - I recently snorkeled those seagrass beds and they are still remarkably healthy. I would say the water quality along the reef from Blue Lagoon to San San bay has improved. There are a few small coral recruits, trying to hold on. Virtually no fish, though.

Functions of seagrass beds are stablilization of sandy bottoms, in some cases (depending on the type of grasses) actual production of sand, habitat for all kinds of marine organisms and food for some - turtle grass so called because it is eaten by green turtles. Seagrasses are a vital part of the marine ecosystem - should never be removed.

Seagrasses, mangroves and coral reefs work together in healthy coastal ecosystems.
Diana from JET

{edited by TBNet}

Genesis: 1-26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

Genesis: 1-28
And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Eco-Faith: Speaking on behalf of the Jewish faith, the original scribes of the Old Testament, is one of their descendant groups.
Judaism View on the Environment:

www.eco-faith.org/faith/judaism.php

Church of the Greater God & The Unmuzzled Majority: Speaking, authoritatively, on behalf of the Bible Verses:
The Bible & the Environment:

www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/library.sr/ct/pw/k/191/the-bible-and-env ironment.htm

Miss M I didn't say we had dominion over nature, I said the things of nature. I also did not say you were arrogant and selfish. Read again.
We are required to 'tend' our 'garden of Eden' not to let it get overgrown and unkempt. Man is not all destructive. Sometimes the regulators go overboard. I am no scientist,but I find it hard to agree with the declaration, by the U.S.EPA,for instance,that Carbon Dioxide is a 'hazardous gas'. Agendas drive a great deal of the so called 'scientific' declarations. A healthy balance is what we need.

Spooky D....I believe the reason that I was "scolded" (edited by our fair webmaster) is that I was drawing on your reference to the Old Testament counsel on man's dominion over....

I trust that you were summing up a belief that has been preached from pulpits on high, as readily as the preachment that the flock should go forth and multiply (even, at times wandering into long division).

We all need our devil's advocates (or lord's angels) to flip ideas around. Orthodoxy & fixed ideas fall along the entire spectrum of argument and discussion, and undoubtedly you sport a provocateurs sly humour and toe-to-toe conviction.

So, when I floated your following thought cloud (previously edited), it was in hopes that, whether you shoot birds, or mend their wings or eat chicken wings, we could have a little to-and-fro over what dominion means to us at this stage of human development and our understanding of animal intelligence/feelings and the intricate web of life. Saluté!

SD: "We have dominion over the things of nature, and that means we use them for our benefit. What you can be is a watch-dog to ensure that no abuse takes place..."

'Scuse me while, while I check with the rabbis and the Torah scholars, who help us interpret these thorny dominon issues...only doing so, because so many of our brethren/sisteren rely on biblical proclamations in their daily lives. Respect begins from that origin:

"In terms of active responsibilities, though, the Torah describes how God tells the first human to "fill the world and have dominion over it." Unfortunately, this verse is often used to suggest that we should subdue the earth according to our whims, and exploit it according to our every need. However, this is clearly not the case, especially when viewed in context of God's second commandment regarding the earth - that we have "to till it and to tend it." In commenting on Gen 1:28, Robert Gordis writes.

To claim that (this verse) provides 'justification' for the exploitation of the environment, leading to the poisoning of the environment, the pollution of the atmosphere, the poisoning of the water, and the spoliation of natural resources is... a complete distortion of the truth. On the contrary, the Hebrew Bible and Jewish interpreters prohibit such exploitation. Judaism goes much further and insists that humans have an obligation not only to conserve the world of nature but to enhance it because the human is the 'co-partner of God in the work of creation.'

The Stewardship model, as it is often known, is not without problems, though, partly because of its arrogance and partly because of the abuses of that stewardship which the human race has continued to show. The other model - Deep Ecology - suggests that we are part of a web of life, one species interconnected with many others. Rabbi Charles Middleburgh suggests a median position:

Stewardship is anthropocentric... yet... the Deep Ecology model, which certainly shoots a hole through our arrogance, is not enough, for it can all too easily lead to apathy. What is needed is a balance, a combination of both: a sense that we are a mere speck in the cosmos, certainly, but also a profound awareness of both our destructive potential and the requirement of environmental responsibility and restraint.

One of the most moving Jewish environmental texts relates to our environmental responsibility not just for ourselves, but also for future generations:

In the hour when the Holy Blessed One created the first human being, God took the person before all the trees of the Garden of Eden, and said to the person:
"See my works, how fine and excellent they are!" Now all that I have created, for you have I created it. Think upon this, and do not corrupt and desolate My world; for if you corrupt it, there is no one to set it right after you.

Being such an ancient religion, Judaism has a tendency to think very long-term. Certainly, the Torah describes many generations of families, and an increased awareness of our actions not just on ourselves, but on generations that come after us, is essential. Thus we read:

One day Choni was journeying on the road and he saw a man planting a carob tree; he asked him, 'How long does it take for this tree to bear fruit?' The man replied, 'Seventy years.' So he asked him: "Are you certain that you will live another seventy years?; to which the man replied, 'I found ready-grown carob trees in the world, so just as my ancestors planted these for me, I too plant these for my children.'

Yet sometimes focussing on future generations is not enough to empower us to act in the here and now, so we need to also consider the consequences of our actions to those around us:

Rabbi Simeon bar Yohai taught: This may be compared to the case of men on a ship, one of whom took a borer and began boring beneath his own seat. His fellow travellers said to him: "What are you doing?" He replied, "What does it matter to you - am I not boring under my own seat?" They said, "It matters to us because the water will come up and flood the ship for us all...."

One might also suggest that this passage continues the Jewish responsibility of rebuke.
The Torah tells us "you shall surely rebuke your neighbour and not bear sin because of him." Nobody likes to rebuke someone else for their actions, especially nowadays, because it carries a connotation of arrogance. Yet when we see someone doing something wrong, the Torah tells us that we have a responsibility to point it out. The difficulty in terms of the environment is that most of us are not completely environmentally responsible, so rebuking others for their behaviour often ends up being a form of catharsis and displacement of guilt rather than a constructive endeavour...."
(from Eco-Faith--Judaism View On The Environment)

If enabling a beach party spot or other by any means because the massive or rich seh so is our path, it does not lead far. As those that should be on watch seem drowzy, the citizens they serve have every right to rouse them.

I like your idea about exclusivity SD. No burners, choppers gone wild, noisemakers and poisoners.

"I am no scientist,but I find it hard to agree with the declaration, by the U.S.EPA,for instance,that Carbon Dioxide is a 'hazardous gas.'

The overwhelming consensus of the international scientific community is that excess Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere is changing our climate. Sounds mighty hazardous to me!

Diana from JET

Miss M [edited by TB.Net],there is no consensus on that. People with large axes to grind are spreading that, shall we say, myth. They even have the market set up to begin trading in an invisible commodity! Many people have gotten rich of this climate change idea and many more are licking their chops.Remember, the fly in the amber was a hoax!And postulations by Scientists on certain date issues have been adjusted by as much as two billion years.
First it was global cooling, then warming,and since the data did not support either claim,it was changed to the more benign and cloudy,'Climate Change.' Climate change has been and will always be part of our existence. Even the name underscores the non-scientific nature of this claim. I offering a new name for the phenomenon: Climate Distortion!

[edited by TB.Net] All over the world we are already being affected by human-induced climate change which is by no means benign, but I know I'm not going to convince you, so will respectfully bow out of this discussion now.

Diana from JET

Spooky Dude, why do you think there were so many tornadoes in the US in the past few days? The earth is getting warmer.

Here is a good site to research the topic.

http://alturl.com/gun8n

Climate change is one thing to consider. Pollution, resource and food scarcity, overpopulation, conflicts, forest depletion, added radiation, devitalised foods, additives and colorings are some others. Some we can control others not.

Knowlege is power, denial unfortunate, disinformation challenging.

[edited by TB.Net] I guess that is why areas which hadn't seen snow in decades, did this year! I guess we all should stop breathing...reduce the carbon footprint...the final solution!
Then again, maybe you are right...summer is almost here, so it is getting warmer.

Spooky Dude, anything I say here will get edited, so all I will say is...BOO!

Oh Spooky Dude, [edited by TB.Net].

Watch Al Gore's An Inconvenient TRUTH

Think about all the recent disasters

Ask some old timers if things are blooming out of season

Research sources of Carbon Dioxide before you suggest we all stop exhaling

"If you take a stand on anything in Jamaica, invariably you are attacked on personal grounds." Diana, these words are so very true.

Breath freely SD. Thing is to count up what else is breathing on your behalf..

Car/s, air conditioning, factories that make stuff you eat and use, any biomass burnt....

Also check where your body wastes and so called garbage is going. Check what you eat. How was it produced and what was affected by the process? Do you flush medications?

How much land does your dwelling occupy? How much plant and animal life was displaced by it's construction? Are there better designs? Some artificial works. Some are just bad design and/or ugly.

Those caught in conspicuous consumption and it's related development by any means resist such examinations. Cyaan badda is lazyness.

By the way, Al Gore also claimed to have invented the Internet! So much for truth!

Wait a minute Truthseeker, I have not attacked anybody. The editing gives that impression. My comment about axes to grind did not include Diana or anyone posting here. But people like Al Gore has gotten rich(er)from his 'Inconvenient Truth' and will not tolerate challenge to his so called 'truth'. He preaches about the dangers of 'Global Warming' yet flies around in his private jet and recently bought a seaside mansion, I guess rising water-levels won't bother him, he'll just build a dyke.
I know concentrated levels of CO2 can kill,but so can concentrated levels of Oxygen, so can too much carrot juice and definitely too much cool-ade is not good.
You may not be aware, but some people have been talking about CO2 output from cattle, suggesting that we should stop eating meat.
Gelatinman, I return the boo,squared!

I tried so hard to stay out of this but Spooky Dude has me spooked.

Dude, Al Gore did NOT claim to invent the internet; that propaganda has been debunked years ago. Check your facts. If you really understood climate change as you purport, you'd understand that warmer winters will result in clouds holding more precipitation and thus more snowfall. In summer we will have more intense heat waves from the same warming. Really, when you think about it, it's not that difficult to understand.

I certainly understand Ms McCauley's consternation as so many of us seem to approach this topic, not from a sense of urgency, but more from a "we need more data" attitude.

The people in Holland and in the South Pacific islands, for example, aren't waiting any longer, and neither should we. What is happening today is the result of events that took place 50 to 100 years ago. That's how long it takes to influence climate change. Once the wheels are in motion it becomes PROGRESSIVELY difficult to stop. Please understand how important our actions are today. Waiting for more proof could take us to the point of no return.

OK CR

Here is a YouTube video on what has happened in Blue Lagoon, with a request for support and help from everyone...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODNsv7CsG9k

Diana from JET

gbb You mean he admitted he did not? Ok I will investigate Al a little further. (How do you like my assonance?)But if I remember correctly it wasn't propaganda!
So why it doesn't rain instead of snow? The funny thing about you humans is that you accept a point of view and then rationalize it,(reverse engineering?)ending up so convoluted that you are convinced that hot means cold and cold means hot. Holland has always been below sea level. The nature of weather is of such that it adjusts itself, so Climate change is a given.
What is happening is some scientist,not believing in God are playing god and mere mortals not believing in God are believing in scientists, so they zealously latch on to whatever is being pushed by these opinion peddlers. Man needs something to believe in and it is when he doesn't listen to the inner-man, telling him that there has to be a God, he starts to believe in all kinds of other things.
You can be assured of this...man will not destroy this earth,either by global warming, cooling, atomic bomb or by recreating the Black Hole with his collider! I Spooky Dude from planet X have spoken!! Now there you have it, straight from the horses mouth!

I give up Spooky.....it's all yours dude!

That video is very 'creative' the before and after do not match up scene for scene. What does the dilapidated and seemingly abandoned nature of this natural wonder have to do with the addition of an 'artificial' beach? It has been left unattended, evidently, and someone has decided to revive it, but it should be done sensibly, taking utmost care and definitely no mindless,loud nonsense which passes for music should be allowed.
gbb..why do you give in so quickly?

I ask the same question too SD and Gbb but just from an observer standpoint. I was enjoying the give and take amongst all and found it extremely amusing but also very worthy of thought. Unfortunately I am not so well versed on the matter as all you guys so just want to say thanks for the uplifting discussion. what happened to Turey?

If I was GBB and I am not I would tell Spooky Dude I am not giving up but his arguements are kind of senseless and all he wants to do is get people to argue. GBB might have more productive things to do like waxing his car. [edited by TBNet]

Spooky D, my job is to sell things to people, with an ability to quickly determine if someone is going to buy or not. Then I'm off to my next appointment. You Dude, aint buying even if it's free.

I'm also trained to be patient in my vocation, so since you asked a question, I will not impolitely ignore you. My answer to your question is your unwavering certaintude about a subject that you are not an expert in. You seem hell bent on ignoring scientific facts, even though you yourself admit that you are not a scientist. That is a sure sign of someone who will not budge.

Debate is important Spooky, but we are not entitled to our own sets of facts. Up can never be down, nor vice versa. I could be wrong but I get the impression you live in the USA and evidently get a good dose of Right Wing media. But step back a little. Use your computer and do some research. For example, Google Al Gore and the Internet invention, or look up his interview with Wolf Blitzer.

I admire your spunk Dude, although I stronly suspect that there is some amount of devil's advocacy on your part. But this is serious stuff we are talking about, and someone with your potential ought to be able to approach this with an open mind.

I'm reminded of the atheist who changed his mind and decided to believe in God. "Suppose", he argued, "suppose I'm wrong in the end about His existence? What do I have to lose by simply believing now anyway?" We have nothing to lose, and all of Humanity to preserve, by believing NOW Spooky. By believing later, we have everything to lose.

GBB, whoever you are, I applaud you.

Present Thanks.

As in TB, the community should be involved in all decsion making. Keeping the lagoon primal and man meking a money are parallel issues.

Encouragement by educational fora on the biology, botany and appropriate public use design would lessen anything that distracts from lagoonhood. When you swim and dive in it you'll know what that is.

As everywhere, teaching the creation of top quality art and craft from local materials spreads the wealth. Portland Craft Co-op was encouraging this area.

Have the Ja Sub Aqua Club or the Dept of Archaeology checked for underwater burials or offerings there? Has anyone pointed out to the community that many people that would patronise the place avoid stopping? And why. People will listen if they are treated honestly and respectfully.

Another treasure that thrives unkempt and wild. Sweet to some.

Must repeat what gbb said and want to keep reading this to remind myself of these so true words.

I admire your spunk Dude, although I stronly suspect that there is some amount of devil's advocacy on your part. But this is serious stuff we are talking about, and someone with your potential ought to be able to approach this with an open mind.

I'm reminded of the atheist who changed his mind and decided to believe in God. "Suppose", he argued, "suppose I'm wrong in the end about His existence? What do I have to lose by simply believing now anyway?" We have nothing to lose, and all of Humanity to preserve, by believing NOW Spooky. By believing later, we have everything to lose.

Hey GBB...not a very good acronym you have chosen, but apt I guess. If you think my arguments are kinda senseless,you should first identify at least one...they can't all be... (even the dull and ignorant have their story to tell)...and back up your claim with arguments.
Now diminutive GBB I don't live in the US and I am not suffering from an overdose of anything except common-sense. There is,you are correct, a certain amount of 'devil's advocacy' in my arguments, but I firmly believe and there is evidence to back it up, that Al Gore, who is also not a scientist, believes in what he has said to a point but he is being used by the radical left to put a different face on their AGENDA which has nothing to do with saving the Planet!
I will not accuse you of over-exposure to left-wing propaganda, but I would say you have been royally spooked, like a lot of other folks have been! There is no consensus on the matter and the data does not support the claims and, as a matter of fact, there were some Emails uncovered not too long ago, which proved that the scientists who are proponents of 'climate change' were suppressing the fact that the data was not supporting their claim.
You are asking me to believe; science should not be about belief, it should be about cold provable facts. Al Gore is no more of a scientist than I am. He has an axe to grind, I would take my chances going in the opposite direction to him.
I don't have my own set of facts, facts are facts, if you had facts you wouldn't be asking me to believe! I was the one who pointed out that cold and hot were being used by your camp as synonyms! I am glad you decided to re-enter the fray...enlightenment or better understanding can result from honest debate..there is always a possibility that we are both wrong. It is never good to withdraw from open debate. One other observation: If something is free, why buy it! And another: I used to be a salesman for a short period in my life and I have met several people who enjoy testing your mettle before buying...I think you may have lost quite a few sales in your haste to get to the next client!

Touche Spooky Dude, my Lord.

GBB, if you believe simply out of convinience, and 'playing the odds' are you truly believing? Don't you think your God could see through that?

I think 'hedging your bet' only works with gambling,right g ood b ad b oy! (gbb)

Spooky D, the fact that you would even bring up those email really does show your intransigence. They too were used by disingenuous parties to muddy the water and have subsequently been shown to be be unreliable. It's amazing that everything you have tried to use in your arsenal have previously been shot down....long ago. [edited by TB.Net]

For the record, I have not once described your view as senseless and do believe I have shown due respect while disagreeing. I even changed my mind about exiting the fray just to avoid being rude to you. You will notice that I prefaced my statement about your place of residence by saying "I could be wrong". Everyone knows that free means you don't have to buy Spooky, but I expected someone of your ability to pick up on the obvious irony. As for your innuendos about my professional abilities, I will not comment on that. It's clear you are simply spoiling for verbal sparring as you seem to want to argue even the most mundane. At least we both agree that you are playing devil's advocate.

Respectfully Bob, I was not stating a personal religious position or belief. I was merely using an analogy which, true to form, Spooky finds fault with.

Spooky Dude, I don't believe there's anymore I can say. We are beating this dead horse to death (hope you get this one!), and causing someone at TBNet to do a lot of reading. So my friend, it's over and out.

gbb there is a capital GBB not you who described my arguments thus, not you.Please read all the posts, Evidently someone is using your alias.
You have lost me sir, I have not questioned your professional or any of your abilities. I was just answering your question why are you taking issue with that.You are mixing up absurdity and irony I respectfully submit.
Man oh man, those Emails existed and did not muddy the waters they illuminated the agenda! You seem to have become a bit flustered and have responded to things of which you have not been accused. [edited by TB.Net] no one has been rude so far except maybe you for suggesting that I maybe suffering from an overdose of right-wing media,so why are you now getting petulant?
Al Gore while pressing his agenda has been very intolerant of views of scientists, and actually barred one from making a point at one of his promotional presentations. OK bro I guess it's time to go, so au revoir, mon! ami.