I believe the Haitian Earthquake is a wake-up call for everyone to turn to God. [edited by TBNet]
These occurences such as the Sodom and Gomorrah story, Noah's story, and many many others, showed us that when the people turned their backs on God then certain tragedies may happen. This tragedy could have happened anywhere in the world, but the fact that it happened in Haiti, the entire world is still seeing it and need to wake up!
In the Jonah's story, the people of Nineveh were warned to change their ungodly ways or the city would be destroyed, they turned to God and were spared. Are we then more special than these people who were destroyed? The fact is that sometimes the good suffers with the bad [edited by TBNet]
I saw people running in Haiti and shouting that it was judgement! Lots of prophesies have already been fulfilled [edited by TBNet]
My heart goes out to Haiti - but what can we learn from this? [edited by TBNet]
I empathise with the people of Haiti. I believe the entire world is moved as is evidenced by the outpouring of aid. [edited by TBNet] God Bless You All.

We all cried with the people of Haiti.We are all humans and in every nationality we will find GOOD and BAD so let us not let down our guards and watch our Boarders because the PRISONS were destroyed and this will be a good thing for the BAD to run to anywhere they can hide.
Jamaica,Dominica Republic,Florida and Puerto Rico.
Sorry but this is reality so let us all keep our eyes open to keep our countries safe.
We know living by the ocean is one of the easiest access for entry.
God Bless Haiti and their people we know they had no control over what happened "That was Mother Nature at Work" but hope the ones that were not so good will look at life differently and start to do good one- to- another to make their country a safer and better place amongst themselves for them and their fellow citizens.

Personally, what I see happening in Haiti is an earthquake. Nothing more. Nothing less. But to each there own.

Revelation are you trying to tell me that those traumatised children who have lost parents and loved ones, those buried alive and dying while we watch their misery on our TV screens have themselves to blame and have suffered because they have done some evil unforgiveable act? Would you be so casually simplistic in your explanation if you had lost your entire family in a natural disaster? The Hatian people need help and yes they need our prayers not twisted religious doctrine.

I am spiritual not religious. Even if I was religious, I might not be the same religion as Revelation or I might not interpret the Bible the same way. It is clear Revelation is a very religious individual and truly believes what he or she says, but I believe this type of preaching is inappropriate for a non-religious forum, and I think it is inappropriate to suggest that a lack of religion may have caused the horror in Haiti. Revelation's words are much kinder than those of Pat Robertson's, but they are somewhat similar. For those who did not hear Robertson's words with regard to the Haitian earthquake, he said the Haitians had made a "deal with the devil" nearly 300 years ago and the present population was paying for this. I feel Robertson's words were insensitive, hurtful and un-Christian.

I hereby request the Webmaster to please delete Revelation's comments.

Amazed, you hit the nail on the head.
I see where this is leading to, and the inevitable being that this thread to be closed.

I feel more and more the importance of being spirited. What I believe does not alter the cosmic unfolding nor the price of cheese.

I do believe in common sense and kindness, their practice certainly brings a sweetness to things.

The effects of the various perspectives on the Infinite are clear. Humanity is divided by the various finite conceptions of the Infinite. Each being correct and absolute...to those involved in their version..

I'm writing these words with tears in my eyes, and pain in my heart for the people of Haiti. We are all God's creation. The people of Haiti, was also form in God's own image as everyone else does. I remember living in Treasure Beach, we have suffered a lot from Mother Nature. We have suffer a lot from Hurricane, Gilbert, Ivan and Dean badly. It was not of anything wicked that we had done why we had suffer so much. we need to leave Judgement to God Almighty alone. I have seen as young as 15 days old, to at least people in their 80s suffering. Let there be only one (Pat Robinson) God should be the only Judge. In His Word he said, "Judgement belongeth to Him".I have seen some very grave stories on the T.V. and my heart really go out to them...[edited by TBNet]
Please, Please let us continue to pray for then. let us by-pass any wrongs that we have proof that they have done. Lives have been lost, soul has reach their destiny, and many, many more may not survived. Many are still alive, buried under rubbles and we can hear their voices crying out for help... PLEASE LET US LIFT OUR VOICES UP TO GOD ON THERE BEHALF...Love you all.

To: The web-master, if I have said anything that I shouldn't have said, please edit and post this post for me. Thank you

Wow Revelation [edited by TBNet] Well I guess that's it then, no fault lines, no tectonic plates, no shoddy building codes. None of that. Just a loving God deciding to kill his disobedient children. [edited by TBNet]

If I wanted to hear religious words I would go to a church. I am Jewish and choose not to go to a church. I find Revelation's words insensitive-mostly to the people of Haiti but also to me and my family. For what it's worth, scientists say the plate that caused the Haitian earthquake has now moved closer to Jamaica. If Jamaica suffers a monstrous earthquake are we supposed to believe it was because of something in the bible or a fault line under the sea.
This is NOT the place to hash it out. I suggest Revelation pray for the hundreds of thousands of people who are suffering in Haiti. That will offend no one.

Earthquakes are one of many "NATURAL DISASTERS" that occur around the world !!
It has nothing to do with man and his relationship to God !!
No matter what Revelation nor Pat Robertson believes !!
ONE LOVE !!
Mike

Maybe religion is the opium of the masses, maybe not. Everyone should to look themselves in the eye, or not. Not, is termed 'fooling yourself'. Being fooled by others, takes you to say yes. Peer pressure or social custom is no excuse for not seeking yourSelf.

I bet the Haitian people could do with some distraction from their pain and anxiety. If it comes in a molecule, a ceremony or a comforting touch, no matter, relief and nourishment are the immediate needs.

This event does put Voodoo/Vodou in the public eye. Are the Bocors going to summon the ancestors and the spirits to give courage and healing? Will the drums roll and calm any panic? Will the societies organise rebuilding planting and Stewardship? Have the people become dependent on others?

Have we?

Some speak of Haiti being in reality 100% Voodoo and Cuba being 100% Santeria. What are we 100% of? Curious minds would like to know.

Whatever our belief, is it not better that we confront our little ways now before nature or our own bad designs force us to call out to the Infinite for mercy. Regardless of our rituals. I hope neither happens before our natural ends of course. Be good scouts and "Be Prepared" for judgement in one form or another comes. Eventually, in that end. Is there another beginning? Who can say honestly?

Our visitors should understand that there are more churches per square mile in Ja than anywhere else in the world. Yes?

Most of us thrive on such reasoning. As in "Iron sharpeneth iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of a friend" Proverbs 27:7. I never said I do not read scripture, it is the history of many of my ancestors and filled with wisdom and good advise. My focus is on the goal not on the merits of the many signposts to it, written or other.

This biblical stuff on this site is freaking me out. Send money to a charity helping Haiti or pray for their people. Stop proselytizing and stop blaming the Haitians for the unspeakable horror that has been inflicted upon them.

I have been watching all reports keenly in the U.S from the day of the earthquake, and this is the FIRST TIME I'm seening that "Scientist say the plates that caused the earthquake has moved close to Jamaica" (THIS ONE IS NEW NEWS) And these posts are not just religious, but, they are just saying that, DISTRUCTION can happen to anyone, anywhere, and we need to show a bit more LOVE to our falling brothers and sisters in Haiti. God say, "Love one another as I have Love you" May God have mercy upon the Haitian, and keep them in His loving arms, and may they find peace with Him...Let us show Love today, we may need someone love tomorrow.

Joy is the fruit of the spirit that's always in season.

To Web-master: please edit if you have to...

I feel I owe our readers an apology. I was multi tasking (as usual) and skimmed more than read the post by Revelation. If I had read the message more thoroughly I would have recommended to Eric some editing. Therefore, we have now edited the parts of the message which may be offensive to some. Again, I apologize for my error in judgment (no pun intended).

Rebecca

I felt moved to explore this issue for a television story on Friday, in light of the many comments that have been made here in Jamaica and, singificanltly, by the American televangelist, Pat Robertson.

Sorry about the upper case script; that's the standard for television. Also, the comments of the interviewees in the bites are not available; but I think the overall message is still discernable.

- Earl


ON CAM

SINCE THE MASSIVE DISASTER, A FEW RELIGIOUS COMMENTATORS HERE AND OVERSEAS HAVE DUBBED THE EARTHQUAKE AN ACT OF GOD IN RETRIBUTION FOR THE PERCEIVED ILLS OF HAITI.

THE COMMENTS MAY HAVE BEEN CONDEMNED PUBLICLY, BUT IT'S CLEAR THERE ARE MANY IN THE RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY WHO SUBSCRIBE TO THIS VIEW OF THE DISASTER.

EARL MOXAM TODAY WENT IN SEARCH OF HISTORICAL AND RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVES:

WRAP

THE AMERICAN TEL-EVANGELIST, PAT ROBERTSON, WAS AMONG THE FIRST TO SOUND OFF ON HAITI'S PROBLEMS, FOLLOWING THIS WEEK'S EARTHQUAKE.

ACCORDING TO HIM THE HAITIAN PEOPLE CONTINUE TO SUFFER GRAVE MISFORTUNES IN THE 21ST CENTURY BECAUSE THEY MADE A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL BACK IN THE 1790's TO THROW OFF THE YOKE OF SLAVERY AND WHITE OPPRESSION.

THE REVEREND DR. BURCHEL TAYLOR IS PASTOR OF BETHEL BAPTIST CHURCH IN HALF-WAY-TREE, ST. ANDREW.

HE, ON THE OTHER HAND, IS URGING THAT THE EARTHQUAKE BE ACCEPTED AS A NATURAL PHENOMENON:

BITE

BUT WHAT WAS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE HAITIAN REVOLUTION TO THE BLACK PEOPLE OF HAITI AND TO OTHER OPPRESSED PEOPLE OF THE LATE 18th CENTURY?

BITE



ACCORDING TO PROFESSOR SHEPHERD THE ASSERTION OF FREEDOM BY THE BLACKS IN HAITI FRIGHTENED THE MAJOR EUROPEAN POWERS OF THE DAY AND THE NEWLY INDEPENDENT UNITED STATES AS WELL:

BITE


AND WHAT ABOUT CLAIMS BY SOME JAMAICANS THAT THE HAITIANS ARE SUFFERING RETRIBUTION FOR THEIR WICKED WAYS?

REVEREND TAYLOR IS CAUTIONING AGAINST PUTTING WORDS INTO GOD'S MOUTH!

BITE


EARL MOXAM... TVJ NEWS.

I don't see what is so insensitive of what Revelation quoted, it goes to show that some people are really not believers of what the bible speaks about. People tend to interpret the bible only when it is used to their benefit. At no time did she say it was anyone's fault, or worse was she blaming it on the innocent children who may have lost their parents. This is not the time to lay blames, [edited by TBNet]. Jamaica was spared from it this time, however, it doesn't mean that our time isn't coming.

Revelation, with Christianity comprising 98% of Haiti's population, could this earthquake be God's way of telling Haiti's people that Christianity is not the way to heaven?

Reluctant to say this because I know Revelation probably has a good heart but I find this string HIGHLY offensive. At least 40,000 Haitians have already been buried and who knows how many more will be found dead or die in the next weeks and months and this person is preaching to us. Revelation, if you want to do something positive please PRAY for the people of Haiti instead of preaching your personal religious beliefs to us. If you can, send a bit of money. Do you recall things after Ivan and Dean? Would you not rather have had water and food and shelter and medicine than someone telling you why God made this happen to your innocent children?

By the way, Haiti is a VERY religious country.

Revelation have a good point,God cant lie, he dose send out his wrogth on us as you can read

here

Proverbs 1 : 24 - 29

1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
haiti need every one prayer and we in Jamaica need plenty prayer too God will have the last say. Bless you all

From JamaicaTripper.com:
Religion plays an important role in the lives of many Jamaicans. The island is said to have the highest number of churches per capita (surpassed only by the number of bars per capita). The Church of Jamaica, Baptist and Church of God are some of the most popular, but services are also conducted for Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jews, Hindus and others. Rastafarianism is one of the best known religions in Jamaica among foreign visitors.

Thanks for the interview Earl, many will turn off their ears.

M Mike, Haitians are 98% Christian and 100% Voodoo.

Listen for the drums! Unless they are deemed a danger to public safety like in Ja in the 18th C. They certainly were for old Bucky M back then.

I am haunted by the sad eyes, especially of little children. The moans and groans as my brothers and sisters in Haiti cry for help. Please STOP the constant preaching/critizing and do something to help. It is not over yet and our day is coming.

For those who have not heard what Pat Roberston, supposedly a devout Chrtitian said, here are his words:
"Something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it. They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon III and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, 'We will serve you if you will get us free from the French. True story. And so, the devil said, 'OK, it's a deal.' And they kicked the French out. You know, the Haitians revolted and got themselves free. But ever since, they have been cursed by one thing after the other. Desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is one island. It's cut down the middle. On the one side is Haiti; on the other side is the Dominican Republic. Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, et cetera. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island. They need to have and we need to pray for them a great turning to God."
- Pat Robertson

Mr. Robertson apparently doesn't know Haitians are very religious. 85% of them are Catholic.

I grew up in a Christian home and went to Churches both saturdays and sundays. I went to a school where I attended chapel every morning and on sundays. Then I grew up and started to find out things for myself.

I discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hamadi Library, among others. I realized that the Bible wasn't the exclusive set of "books" dictated by God, but, rather, was a collection of books chosen and canonised by religious authorities. Said Bible has been revised time and time again.

My point here is that, while Revelation has the freedom to express his/her views, one should be careful when attempting to speak in absolute terms. The sand is always shifting. Just recently, the Catholic Church announced that it was considering exploring the possibility of extra terrestial life. This is the same church that persecuted Galileo for suggesting that the earth revolves around the Sun. Go figure.

So, are we going to blame the victims in Haiti? When hurricanes hit Jamaica, do Jamaicans think it's god's wrath upon them, because they have been sinful? And what's with the fearmongering about "bad" Haitians coming across our borders?

The other day someone said to me, "There are so many Jamaicans; why don't they practice birth control?" - as if to say if they practiced birth control, maybe they wouldn't be suffering so now. Give me a break.

Does it occur to some posters on this board that not all who read it, or all who visit TB, agree with their brand of religion? Or want to hear the fundamental preachments that so often crop up on this board? Yet the webmasters allow that kind of stuff.

And as to the continued arbitrary censorship by the webmasters, how about censoring ALL talk of religion? Perhaps some of us find such posts as offensive as the webmasters find posts calling a spade a spade, for naming names of those who would exploit TB, and are indeed doing so. Are atheists' and agnostics' views allowed equal space on this board? And if not, why not?

I really hope this post will not be censored. I see nothing in it to offend - or that OUGHT to offend, anyone's delicate sensibilities in it.

So why did the webmaster edit ok's message (below)? I want to know ALL of what OK had to say. What wasn't edited is straight, plain talk, and right on.

ok then on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 01:29 pm: Edit Post

Wow Revelation [edited by TBNet] Well I guess that's it then, no fault lines, no tectonic plates, no shoddy building codes. None of that. Just a loving God deciding to kill his disobedient children. [edited by TBNet]

Please, can we not close this thread?
Do we really need to debate religeon here?
This is a debate that has caused most wars, and never has any resolution for centuries. I just can't believe that I am on this website and all I see is bible versus, people saying the world is coming to an end, time tp repent etc. This is nuts. I feel like Chicken Little.
Pleae TB Net. Show some class here.

Thank-you TBnet. I still think Revelations post offensive but I guess its now OK by you. Their saying may be more then 100,000 dead in Haiti and people use this space to preach. Whose to say their religion is the best one. Whose to say you must be religious. Its one things to say God Bless You and its another to say all the peoples and childrens who died are being punish by God. Thats whats so offensive to me.

I suppose the slave traders were 100% christian and 100% evil eh Turey.

Hi Churches and Bars)

Dont all these Religion serve some different gods,?

{edited by TBNet}

OK, its about that time again...things are getting over heated in this thread.

Expressing belief in a particular religion is perfectly fine. Telling people that they have to believe in it too (and will be the cause of more natural disasters if they don't) is not.

We're going to be pretty tight on approving messages in here form now on. Please only bring new info/points of view rather than rehashing what's already been said.

And for those of you who want to discuss things we won't approve here, there are plenty of other message boards on the internet. We're not preventing you from saying what you want, but we are asking that you not do it here.

With Respect to all,
-TBNet

Yes Amazed, it's all coming out now.

100% Love, the best Rx.

Right on, Turey, Amazed, and Offensive!

Here's a link to an article which explains aspects of the Haitian Revolution and the genesis of that ridiculous comment by Pat Robertson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutty_Boukman

You people have to figure it out - TB.net only wants you to talk about goodness and light.

Thanks History Buff. The prayer at the Bois Caiman ceremony is traditionally said to have been made by Boukman Dutty (Book Man, he was literate) may serve to clarify the intent of Voodoo/Vodou and put Mr Robertson in clearer light.

"The god who created the earth; who created the sun that gives us light. The god who holds up the ocean; who makes the thunder roar. Our God who has ears to hear. You who are hidden in the clouds; who watch us from where you are. You see all that the white has made us suffer. The white man's god asks him to commit crimes. But the god within us wants to do good. Our god, who is so good, so just, He orders us to revenge our wrongs. It's He who will direct our arms and bring us the victory. It's He who will assist us. We all should throw away the image of the white men's god who is so pitiless. Listen to the voice for liberty that speaks in all our hearts."

I'm sure any creature of darkness would trimble hard when hearing of this. It's not whitey now, it's darkness contained in any coloured body.

Psy Ops started, long ago in Africa.

But the problem, TBNet - and it's the same with ALL censorship - is that we never know what will, or will not be censored.

The problem with censorship is that is arbitrary, and the list of offenses requiring silencing keeps growing. Not only that, it makes a LOT of work for the censor: Whoops! not sure I like the sound of THAT. Or THAT. Or THAT. Your general rules keep broadening into specific reasons to censor. And yeah, there's a lot of god-talk on this board,ALL of which is offensive to some of us.

So now we can't rehash, or deliberate in depth, but can only bring up new topics, cheery topics, ones that promote good vibes in TB? Does that mean all talk of the wall in Great Bay, which amounted to a gross rape (whoops! better censor out THAT word, even it it is widely used to apply to the destruction of the natural environment) of a lovely dune, will be censored?

As long as no one is threatening anyone, or using obviously obscene words, why not allow for free and open discussion? What's the harm?

Otherwise, you are stuck in a world of your own every-changing rules, and by those rules, you must spend increasing amounts of time in a state of vigilance.

This is NOT a disrespectful message. Would it be acceptable if I talked in riddles, like Turey? Or if we all had the cache of Diana from JET? Or would it be better if there no room for straight, rational, reasoned exchange on this board, without the poster having to spend inordinate amounts of time second-guessing the rules of censorship?

You say that those of us who object to your shapeshifting rules of censorship are free to post on other boards. Sure, but it is TB we are interested in. Directing us elsewhere, granting us "free speech" elsewhere, is to refuse to examine your rules, and that's too bad, because meanwhile, bring on the jetskis, bring on the canal, bring on the stadium, and drive away those of us who have come to love TB.

And one has to wonder: how many posts like this one, which is not disrespectful in any way, you refuse to post, because they dare to question your ever-changing, ever-increasing rules of censorship.

Gonaïves, January 1, 1804
Year I of Independence

Today, January 1, 1804, the General in Chief of the Indigenous Army, accompanied by generals and army chiefs convoked in order to take measures tending to the happiness of the country:

After having made known to the assembled generals his true intention of forever ensuring to the natives of Haiti a stable government — the object of his greatest solicitude, which he did in a speech that made known to foreign powers the resolution to render the country independent, and to enjoy the liberty consecrated by the blood of the people of this island; and, after having gathered their opinions, asked each of the assembled generals to pronounce a vow to forever renounce France; to die rather than to live under its domination; and to fight for independence with their last breath.

The generals, imbued with these sacred principles, after having with one voice given their adherence to the well manifested project of independence, have all sworn before eternity and before the entire universe to forever renounce France and to die rather than live under its domination.

Signed:

Dessalines
General-in-Chief

Christophe, Pétion, Clerveaux, Vernet, Gabart
Major Generals

P.Romain, G. Gérin, L. Capois, Jean-Louis Francois, Férou, Cangé, G. Bazelais, Magloire Ambroise, J.J. Herne, Toussaint Brave, Yayou
Brigadier generals

Bonet, F. Paplier, Morelly, Chevalier, Marion
Adjutants-general

Magny, Roux
Brigade Chiefs

Chaperon, B. Goret, Macajoux, Dupuy, Carbonne, Diaquoiainé, Raphael, Malet, Derenoncourt
Army officers

Boisrond Tonnerre
Secretary

Their Declaration of Independence. How dare they?

They dared and suffered since.

In a way Goodness & Light. From a perspective of Light, darkness/ignorance is more obvious and blatant.

I believe what is being encouraged here is respectful and sensitive reasoning on topics that are a challenge to the intent of the community, a sharing of our local, current and national history and a place for visitors to get good info.

The intent of this community being the maintenance of the beauty, charm and relaxed vibe in TB while bettering the quality of living for all.

These topics may not be pleasurable to wade through and encourage to a good and fair conclusion, to ignore them because they don't feel full of goodness and light would be folly.

To utilise this space to fulfill bringing in the sheep, Da'wah or propagation of whatever yoga or doctrine, is better done in the appropriate places. I for one do not want the battles between the ideologies to drain our energy here.

Forget about Do Gooders. Do Besters now.

[edited by TBNet]. You think religious differences are going to be worked out on this site? You think someone is going to prove theirs is the true religion, the best religion, the only way to heaven? Religion is a highly personal matter and discussing it here is what is offensive. I do not argue or discuss my sex life in public and I feel the same way about my religion.
I do not always agree with what TB.net chooses not to print but DO they print things that ARE controversial. One is about the wall. Some people think it's OK and others probably want it torn down.

Thank you TB.net. This was starting to feel like when people come to your home uninvited and try to preach their particular religion. [edited by TBNet]I respect their right to believe but I do not want them telling me I need to believe what they do or such and such might happen. If someone could PROVE there is one true religion that would be perfect for everyone, we wouldn't be having all this heated discussion. The truth is no one knows which religion is best. Maybe not believing in God or not having any particular religion is best. Who knows? What I DO know is I don't care to hear about why I should follow a certain religion and this is NOT the place to discuss this sort of topic.

I agree No Missionaries. This is what I said a week ago!

Everyone has a right to their beliefs whatever they may be, and we all should respect each other
and whatever we believe in without being overly critical, everyone in the end will suffer the consequences of whatever it is they believe in.
I do believe one thing, if there is a hell
it will be standing room only
let us not be judjes, but let us each do what we can to ease the suffering in Haiti

Hey Rebecca, do you ever get burned out tryiong to always do the right thing but usually get lashed out at?

My opinion was, amnd still is this forum is NOT a place to debate religeon! It is a debate that never has a winner!
Let's get over it and move on!

PLEASE do NOT give up. They published this post and from what I can see, the WebMaster has made no edits because they are not marked. I have been very frustrated with what's been happening of late on this site. I have found many of the posts about religion offensive. I have definitely found any reference to the Haitians somehow bringing the earthquake upon themselves beyond offensive. I found them disgusting. At the same time, I sent in a post about the wall and it wasn't printed, and I find the wall offensive.
I know this is a private site and probably the WebMaster gets posts which use curse words and they don't want that to show up. I do not understand why if something unkind is said about a particular person it is considered a personal attack if what is said is 100 percent true.
Everyone who writes in here or who reads this forum likes Treasure Beach or we would not bother to do so. It is not wrong to tell the truth when the truth can be proved.

I live in the U.S. and was very amused to see on the local news clips of missionaries RETURNING form Haiti! [edited by TB.Net]