Observer article re 'wall' in Treasure Beach

Treasure Beach Forum: TB Runnin's: Observer article re 'wall' in Treasure Beach
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Berlin Wall on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 09:19 am: Edit Post

The following is an article written by John Maxwell and his feelings about the 'wall' in Old Wharf Treasure Beach. Strong words indeed.

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/columns/Maxwell-Jan-10


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Noel on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 10:47 am: Edit Post

Is there a picture of that wall somewhere on TBNet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 12:22 pm: Edit Post

Mr Maxwell refers us to a law drafted by Norman Manley. The Beach Control Act 4.1 "When the beach has been used by the public....without interruption for the full period of 20 years...have the absolute and indefeasible* right to use such beach, land....." These are the words of one of our National Heroes, it was not written by some pesky and troublesome Environmentalist.

Unobtrusive signs with this law placed in the right locations should remind of our rights.

Which reminds me of our local need for beach advise etc signs as dicussed last year. It's not that I have a thing for signs, just good communication.

* Cannot be altered or voided.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By sentry on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 12:36 pm: Edit Post

Thank you for sharing this article. This is most worrisome and frustrating. I was born and bred in Great Bay, and it distresses me to no end to see this activity taking place. I'm just a regular 9 to 5 paycheck to paycheck stiff, with little or no means to affect any change here, but I'd sure like to try. Any suggestions?

I know this subject had a heated and short lived discussion earlier but hope we can continue discussing, and hopefully find some constructive counter to this public affront.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 05:30 pm: Edit Post

Yes Sentry, what is done probably can not be easily or immediately reversed but the alternatives for future projects need to be discussed. Hopefully the heat has dissipated and we can reason our way now.

Your encouraging this is in itself a step towards the changes needed. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By My Opinion on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 07:00 pm: Edit Post

All my opinion: The wall is ugly. It has the potential to endanger surrounding structures in the instance of a hurricane or strong storm. [edited by TB.Net] John Maxwell has a backbone and is unafraid to tell the truth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 07:27 am: Edit Post

I have not seen the wall myself, but from the photographs, it does not seem to me like it is blocking access to the beach or the ability to walk along the foreshore. The wall seems to be built on private land above the high water mark, so I don't think the Beach Control Act applies. I understand there is an old Development Order for St. Elizabeth which requires sea walls to be under four feet high, but have not yet found a copy. We are still researching the question of destroying turtle nesting habitat.
Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Golden Rule on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 05:57 am: Edit Post

This makes me angry. Who is going to challenge Mr. Bicknell? My guess is absolutely no one will even if the wall is illegal. The wall is there to stay. Next will come the jet skis[edited by TBNet]. Those will definitely stay because there is no law forbidding them. Legal or illegal, there will be no difference. Someone said it here before but it is worth repeating. The Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold makes the rules.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By 4 the Record on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 11:19 am: Edit Post

With all due respect because I certainly DO respect the hard work Miss McCawlay does, I have also been told she is a friend of the Bicknells. I am asking Miss McCawlay to say if this is true or not for the record. Though I have very limited experience with legal matters, I believe it is very difficult to be totally objective about our friends. In addition, Miss McCawlay appears to be providing her opinion with words like SEEMS TO ME without even having seen the wall that many others HAVE SEEN and have found offensive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By FED UP on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 - 11:00 am: Edit Post

[edited by TB.Net] The Jamaican government is too slack and is about time some of the people who has left Treasure Beach and travel abroad and are very educated start writing to the government and stand up for their little community.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Saddened on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 06:48 am: Edit Post

In his posting elsewhere on the Forum, Roger duRand says “I was dismayed to see two jet-skis pass by, and a helicopter land at Jake's! Also, the giant (and illegal?) stone wall on the beach up toward Pedro Bluff--- is there an effort to challenge it?” Though it saddens me to admit it, my answer to Mr. duRand, someone who clearly appreciates the many wonderful things Treasure Beach has to offer, is the same as Golden Rule’s---HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULES. The overwhelming majority of residents of Treasure Beach cannot afford jet-skis, using helicopters, or building giant stone walls. These disruptive things are being done by people who have FAR more money than the hardworking locals who feel powerless and must use their waking hours to try to eke out a living by farming and fishing and catering to tourists.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By To: 4 the record on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 08:02 am: Edit Post

To: For the Record:
What does it matter if Diana McCauley is a friend of the Bicknells? Many of us in towns here grew up together and took different paths. That should not affect our jobs. The only important fact should be that she is true to her work as an environmentalist, no matter who is doing what. Maybe she has not seen the wall in person (and with a bad back it is not an easy drive for her to get to Treasure Beach from Kingston), but she has seen photographs of it.
I just do not understand the voices that are only criticizing those dedicated ones who strive daily to make Jamaica a better country for all.
And yes, jet-skies are now in our waters, so is the helicopter from time to time, and that kind of traffic will probably only increase, as WE do nothing about it, other than talk about who else should be fixing our problems.
Most people live and come to Treasure Beach because it is different to other parts of the island, because it is quiet, because it is safer than the rest of Jamaica, because of the community being fairly close-knit. Why then are we allowing that to change, and so quickly too?
2010 is a new year. Isn't it time we all start doing what we can for a better St. Elizabeth, a better Jamaica?
Responsible residents make for a safer living, all round.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mnken on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 08:41 am: Edit Post

Fed up wrote:
'is about time some of the people who has left Treasure Beach and travel abroad and are very educated start writing to the government and stand up for their little community.'
Why not take that a step farther and some people there step up and become the govermenrt? If you no like the government, change it or become it. Writing will accomplish nothing. They probably won't ever read it! Some of the best politicians get into politics because of things like this!
Step tothe plate!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By 4 the Record on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 09:27 am: Edit Post

I said I respect the work Miss McCawlay does and I would not question her integrity. She cares about what she does and she works very hard for the people of Jamaica. I did not say she could not be objective if an environmental matter regarded someone who might be a friend of hers. In reading what I wrote yesterday I can see how that may have been implied and I apologize for my clumsy wording.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 08:25 am: Edit Post

HI everyone,
With regard to the question posted by 4 the record as to whether or not I am "friends with the Bicknells" - I have known both Chris and Bruce since they were children. I wouldn't say we are close friends precisely, as we don't see each other except at other people's social functions. We're friends in the way anyone who has lived their entire life in Jamaica is friends with hundreds of people.

JET raises money from over 100 local companies and Tankweld gives us a relatively modest donation each year. I have adopted the tactic of raising smaller sums from many companies, as it means that should anyone ever threaten to withdraw financial support over an issue, it won't make much difference to our overall budget. In the 19 years I have been running JET, only one private sector person has ever phoned me and asked me to withdrawn one of our materials, as it was critical of one of their products. I refused to and that company is still a donor to JET today.

It seems that 4 the record feels that because I know the Bicknells I am being - what? Too soft on them or too hard? I'm not clear. I try to keep personalities out of things - I try to look only at the issues. What are the issues re the wall at Old Wharf?

1) Is it legal? So far, NEPA says it is. As far as I understand it, the Parish Council has also given permission. JET and others continue to explore this aspect.

2) Will it affect turtle nesting? It seems that it will. The trouble is that our laws do not provide for protection of critical habitat for any species.

3) Has it spoiled/changed/marred a lovely coastal view? Personally, I believe it has - as have many, many coastal developments along the north coast. But "proving" aesthetics is very difficult - one person's blot on the landscape is another person's dream house. Again, and in my opinion only, there are many very ugly buildings in Treasure Beach. In the absence of a development order or planning instrument of some kind, there is little to be done about it.

4) As I have repeatedly said on this forum, there are no laws prohibiting jet skis anywhere in Jamaica. There are places I am aware of where constraints on their use have been agreed on by citizens - but never, to my knowledge, an outright ban.

5) JET works to try and get a fair, consistent environmental regulatory framework that will protect Jamaica's natural environment. WE do not believe our role is to "go after" individual developments - it is impossible, in any case, as (a) there are too many of them and (b) we have no legal standing in the matter. What we try to do is get NEPA and the other associated regulatory bodies to do their job - and that is what we have been doing with the wall at Great Wharf. We also try to get citizens to act themselves - as they do have the necessary legal standing. Usually this is very difficult as people are apathetic and afraid.

6) With regard to not having visited the wall myself, I have received many, many photos from multiple sources and spoken to at least half a dozen people. I think I have a pretty good handle on the issues as outlined above. I wish I had time to personally travel to every site under some kind of threat - but that too is quite impossible.

I hope that has covered the concerns raised by 4 the record but am happy to answer further questions if there are any.

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 04:56 pm: Edit Post

I have just come back from a meeting at NEPA re the wall at Old Wharf and it DOES NOT have Parish Council approval. An application was sent in but it has not so far been approved. The wall has been constructed illegally. I will say more tomorrow.
Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thanks Diana on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 07:48 pm: Edit Post

Diana -

Thank you for all your continued work to help the issues that stand to destroy our beautiful country. Your words make such sense.

Maybe as the wall has not been given Parish Council approval, and has been constructed illegally, there could be a slim chance it will have to be taken down.

IF IF IF we people stand up and be counted as a strong voice, just imagine, this could be done. What a powerful message to send to those that disregard our agencies such as Parish Council, NEPA etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Uncle Peter on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 02:41 pm: Edit Post

Look. I just don't understand this. There's this construction at Old Wharf and people are up in arms about it and commenting on the TB website.

If there is a problem with it just don't bang on about it. Do something for heaven's sake !!!!

You have a local MP - Mr Tufton - sorry, The Honorable Mr Tufton.

Why not contact him directly and ask him to find out and explain the facts relating to the Bicknell construction?

After all, Mr Tufton is elected. He's elected by you and, furthermore, he's paid by you!!!

Use him !!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger duRand on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 10:54 pm: Edit Post

Encouraging to hear about the absence of required approval. Excellent point, also, Peter, regarding the urging of action on the part of the Hon. Tufton! An injunction should be filed ASAP to halt further work at that site until binding legal decisions are made as to the fate of the monster wall. As a zoning board member in the US, I have often required the removal of structures built without proper review and approvals. Let's use what power we do have!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana from JET on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 08:48 am: Edit Post

So yesterday a few members of the Jamaica Environmental Advocacy Network met with NEPA and the Parish Council re the wall at Old Wharf.

On the planning side and to my considerable amazement, we were told that the wall did NOT have Parish Council approval. We were told that the application had been sent in, the Parish Council had sent it back for some amendment, and they had only just received the new application. They said they had gone and told "them" to stop work, but work had not stopped. They said they had received ABSOLUTELY NO OBJECTION FROM ANYONE. So, Treasure Beach folks, now is the time to voice your WRITTEN objections, if any, to the Parish Council, to your MP Christoper Tufton, to Peter Knight at NEPA. There is a very short window for this - I would say no more than a week.

On the environmental side, NEPA had considered whether or not the wall required a permit under the Beach Control Act and had decided it did not. They, however, had not looked in any detail at the NRCA Act, and in my opinion, the wall DOES require an environmental permit. We made that case forcefully to NEPA = whether they will accept it nor not remains to be seen.

NEPA and the Parish Council will now meet and decide what to do. You have one week to try to influence that decision.

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana from JET on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 10:41 am: Edit Post

Here is contact info for anyone who wishes to object:

Mr. Peter Knight
CEO (Acting)
National Environment and Planning Agency
10 Caledonia Ave
Kingston 10
Peter.knight@nepa.gov.jm
Fax: 754-7594

Mr. David Gardner
Secretary/Manager
St. Elizabeth Parish Council
58 High Street
Black River
stelizabethpc@yahoo.com
Fax: 965-2776

Hon. Christopher Tufton
Member of Parliament
St. Elizabeth South Western
C/o Ministry of Agriculture
Hope Gardens,
Kingston 6
minister@moa.gov.jm
Fax: 927-1785


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wondering on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 07:30 pm: Edit Post

Wondering if there's a difference in how illegal construction is treated if it's done by someone wealthy or by Average Joe Citizen. Time will tell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Good Neighbor on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 06:31 am: Edit Post

There are strict but fair zoning laws where I live. For instance, a home cannot be built too close to a road or a house cannot exceed a certain height. A building permit is required to either build a house or to make any substantial improvements such as adding on two bedrooms to an existing one. We also have building inspectors who carefully check construction to be certain something has been built up to adequate building standards. If someone is so foolhardy as to build a home that violates these codes they can expect to be reported, and they can expect the structure to be torn down even if they made a huge investment in construction.
I realize there are no such zoning laws in Jamaica. I know the penalties for violating building things illegally in Jamaica are so small as to have no consequence. (What happened to the people responsible for our canal? Nothing.) I also understand aesthetics cannot be regulated because what is ugly to one person could be beautiful to another.
[edited by TBNet]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mnken on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 05:28 pm: Edit Post

YES!
[edited by TBNet] The best lesson to be taught here would be to not allow this wall to remain. And somehow this needs to be made public (newspaper, internet).
And to quote a former president of the U.S., Ronald Reagan,
"Mr. Bicknell, TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!!!"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Murray on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 12:14 pm: Edit Post

I haven't personally seen the wall yet (but hope to do so shortly) so I don't feel I am (yet) in a position to express complaints. But as a general proposition I am opposed to any disproportionately large and unsightly construction, particularly on the waterfront and more particularly where it may endanger the reproductive behaviour of sea turtles.

To maximise effectiveness I would suggest that anyone writing to register a complaint should keep a copy of the letter(s), and send it/them by registered mail, as well as by email. For those resident in St. Elizabeth I would suggest that, when delivering the letter of objection to the Parish Council, you have the Parish Council sign and date a copy of the letter (which you keep), as evidence of the objection having been lodged. One final useful step would be to post a copy of each such letter on this website. If one is going to take the trouble of writing, one might as well be certain one's objections come to the attention of the planning authorities.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anonymous HERE on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 06:52 pm: Edit Post

I have written to the three as suggested. I do not feel comfortable posting my letters here on TB.net because there are people in the community who believe that wall is attractive and I do not want to be viewed as a troublemaker. I am also aware the owner of the property is a very powerful individual in Jamaica and I do not wish to inflame him by doing anything in such a public way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger duRand on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 07:16 pm: Edit Post

Diana,

Could you clarify a few points for me so that I can be better informed before deciding how to try to help (if I should, or can) resolve this issue:

What is the nature and scope of the intended finished development on that site?

What permits are required, and from what authorities, in order to begin physical work?

What criteria are considered in determining approval, modification, or denial of permits?

In response to a formal application for permits, was the proposed project advertised in good faith to those presumed to be affected, such as property owners and residents within a certain radius, allowing an appropriate interval for a considered response?

Do similar precedents exist that might bear on a decision here?

I wonder if my input might carry weight as an outsider (not a voter!), because I represent a class of 'tourist' who is impacted by, and very much opposed to, the wanton desecration and vulgarization of the relatively unspoiled and traditionally human-scaled shoreline aesthetics. We are a significant contingent of visitors who base our travel and spending(!) in part on these considerations! Does this give me any standing?

If you like, you can respond directly to rogerdurand@cox.net if this is too cumbersome for the blog, but maybe others would also like to hear.

And if anyone thinks I should butt out and leave it to the locals, please say so!

Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rebecca on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 08:19 pm: Edit Post

Someone just sent me these photos which should help those who haven't seen the wall get an acurate perspective of it.

Before the wall
beach

Wall from public beach side.
wall

Wall from Taino Cove side. Same height as from public beach side.
wall2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 11:07 pm: Edit Post

Your advise and questions are sound Mr DuRand, I welcome your input. I'm a Jamaican who owns land in Great Bay. The development can probably be seen from it as it is on a higher perch.

Apart from dealing with the quantifiable insults to land, flora and fauna and aesthetics as subjective as it is, there is the longer term consideration of our relationship with the Bicknells. I don't know the sons but would probably recognise the older generation from Kingston of old.

I have no quarrel with them and would hope to welcome themselves, their friends and family with the rest of the community. With hope for peace, security and prosperity for all parties for the long run. They have announced their presence dramatically already, continuing here would be good.

The nesting of turtles and any disturbance of crocodile pathways etc should be examined properly if NEPA has not already taken these things into account. They must have though eh?

I have stated my mode of development here and have discussed it with my friends and neighbours. Without their input, advise and good wishes, I may as well stay in the cold.

Thanks and best wishes, turey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana from JET on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 06:51 am: Edit Post

To Roger duRand,
I wish there were simple answers to your questions. There aren't, but I will give it a shot.

1) Re the nature of the entire development, the purpose of the wall and so on: The Parish Council reps at the meeting did not know. Neither did NEPA. All they were concerned about was the wall. This piecemeal way of looking at projects is something I have been fighting for years.

2) The permits required depends very much on what is planned. If just a wall, then a beach license would be needed IF THE WALL WAS ON THE FORESHORE. This is not. If the wall resulted in the clearing and excavation of a beach, an environmental permit is needed. We think this does apply. NEPA is not sure.

3) All relevant permits are supposed to be obtained before work starts.

4) I can't tell you what criteria are used by the local Parish Council for building approval because I have never sat inside that room. I imagine engineering and so on. They certainly should have looked at the development order, which they seem not to have done. NEPA (the environmental regulators) would look at whether the work required a permit and what the effects on the environment would be. Trouble is, NEPA thinks that every single environmental effect can be mitigated.

5) I am not sure what level of public consultation was done for this development - people in Treasure Beach would have to say. My impression is - none.

6) As for similar precedents, I am sad to say that this is quite a usual way to go about business in Jamaica, the regulators tolerate it, and in most cases "regularize" the development after construction has started, or approve a "retention of use," depending on the applicable statute. Again, this is something JET has been opposing for years.

7) With regard to whether or not you have standing to object as a non resident, one of the few environmental victories I can remember in my 20 years of doing this work is the widespread objection that was made to putting houses in Hope Gardens in Kingston. Most of that objection came from people living overseas, mostly Jamaican born, or of Jamaican parentage, but not voters. What matters about an objection is the REASONS. If they are sound and valid reasons, then they will be considered regardless of who makes them.

I hope that is helpful.
Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mnken on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 07:55 am: Edit Post

How many locals from Treasure Beach are on the council? How many run for a seat during election time? How many residents of TB go to the council meetings? Are the minutes posted? Is there an upcoming agenda for the meetings that can be viewed by the public to see if there is an issue being discussed that affects them so they may attend?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 09:37 am: Edit Post

Thank you, Diana
I appreciate the thoughtful response.
Turey, thanks to you also. Of course the Bicknells have every right to enjoy ownership of their property here within the law; given that, however, it is ethically incumbent upon them to RESPECT community standards and traditions, and to consider the effects on Treasure Beach regarding precedent for future erosion of our visitor appeal, thus our livlihood. One would hope that the desire to be a good neighbor would inform their incursions into our sensitive community. We have the opportunity to bring to greater general awareness the real necessity of responsible, community-sensitive development.
Please, everyone: contact your authorities (as listed above) and share your concerns. And thanks for accepting my help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Murray on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 11:36 am: Edit Post

Mr. duRand invites anyone who thinks he should butt out and leave it to the locals to say so. Anonymous Here has written to NEPA, the Parish Council and the MP, but doesn't want to be seen as a troublemaker. I understand the wish to be sensitive to local concerns and not to make oneself objectionable. I respect and appreciate that. I can certainly see the merit in not being contentious or inflammatory for its own sake, regardless of who owns a particular property. However, my sense is that (as is often the case with developmental issues) there are many who understand the points and are deeply concerned for the community and the environment, but each is waiting on someone else to take the lead. Whilst therefore I applaud Anonymous Here for writing in, and Mr. duRand for posting his concerns here, I think it would be very helpful if anyone who feels strongly enough to object, to consider sharing his/her objection letter(s) publicly (with names redacted, if that gives more comfort), or at least to post saying that he/she has written in. Others reading such letters and posts may be encouraged to stand up and be counted also. Of course, posting objections on the web only can never be a substitute for writing to NEPA, the Parish Council and the MP.

Perhaps because those living in Jamaica have so many glaring examples of environmental concerns and community wishes being ignored in the push for "development", a sense of despondency and hopelessness (but I hope not fear) seems to keep people passive. All the more reason then, why those living abroad but who cherish the rugged and unspoilt beauty of Treasure Beach should express their views on such issues. Let them do so sensitively by all means, and respectfully, as Mr. duRand has done (and as is appropriate for a guest in another's country) but please let us have the community benefitting from the widest possible range of views, skills and experiences.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karen Kennedy on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 03:20 pm: Edit Post

Mr. Murray, I sent letters to the three gentlemen as Miss McCawlay suggested. I would prefer not to share them word-for-word, but I did voice my objections to the illegal wall. I hope many others will do the same, and I hope they will do it as quickly as possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stunned on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 12:02 pm: Edit Post

Your help is appreciated Mr duRund. Most of us from Treasure Beach, locals and ex-pats alike, fit into the category of willing but unable for various reasons. Anything anyone, including yourself and Ms. McCaulay, can do would make a huge difference.

Quite frankly, the sight [TBNet], as evidenced by Rebecca's photos, is enough to make me cringe. [TBNet]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Write A Letter NOW on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 06:22 am: Edit Post

To everyone who is reading the Forum and cares about Treasure Beach - if you do not take the time to write these letters you will have only yourself to blame if nothing happens with this wall. If you do not tell others who do not read the Forum, you are not doing all you could have. Treasure Beach "belongs" to you as much as it belongs to everyone else. If you cannot write a letter by yourself, get get someone else to help you and then both of you sign your names. If you are content to let Treasure Beach be run by people who make more money than you do, then sit back and do nothing. But this is like not voting in an election and then complaining because the person you liked best didn't win. People didn't know how to voice their objections on the canal and now look at what we have. Maybe nothing will come out of the letter writing but if you do not try how will you ever know. Stand up for your rights.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rebecca on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 07:28 pm: Edit Post

Just for the record. I did not take those photos, someone sent them to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cindy James on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 05:04 am: Edit Post

Why marry the woman /man then want to change them. To me TB is one of the best places in the world not just because of the landscape but my people we are not perfect but we are not far from it. We are welcoming we share what we have and in saying that I am including our beaches. So this is where my original comment comes into play why then would anyone want to change our paradise and cause discord in our community. Let me explain something to those who are new to our community. The sea is in our blood the smell the sound of waves crashing a walk on the beach to us is priceless and to deny us of this pleasure would be a crime against our community.

If you have found paradise the only way you can improve it is by respecting the natural beauty and the people. If you like the beach so much why then would you want to deny the locals of such a pleasure? Come on a private beach is not so important a status symbol; harmony in ones community is by far the greater reward.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By murnel on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 12:42 pm: Edit Post

What exactly is the purpose of this wall?
It reminds me of the "Wall of China"
"The Berlin Wall" I could go on but I know you got the drift.
Is it being built to safe guard the owners property from outsiders or protection from water damage in case of a hurricane.
Looking at those pictures makes it concerning but, if it is on his/her property and in no way taking away access to local residents from enjoying their walking and swimming pleasures then I guess there is not much anyone can do."It seems" I will repeat "It Seems"
I do not know the Laws in regards to building of sea walls but I would think a permit would have to be granted before projects of this magnitude are erected.
Jamaica please put your Law to work.Get the right people to visit that site and do the right thing, that is what the Tax Payers are paying you to do.

I will be helping from here in the States by writing to the Government Department which is in charge.
Every letter/text/fax/ whatever means will help. I really believe that so, let us all get busy and do our part.We need answers.
I do not think condemnation and name calling is the answer so, when the time comes and a Community Meeting is announced to take place I do hope everyone will attend.
On that note I hope this will be settled in a right and peaceful manner.

God Bless Our Beautiful Community.
God Bless Jamaica.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 09:57 am: Edit Post

Thanks Ms James, that was real and beautifully put.

Restricting or taking away our seaside pleasure is not the action of a sensitive government or of good neighbours.

To erect an eyesore on top of this is indeed audacity. Audacity heading in the wrong direction.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By do understand on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 05:53 pm: Edit Post

I know every one is upset about this wall please
stop and think for a moment, do we all look at our beach lately, how it is taking away all the beach expeciall when hurricane come we all would
love to protect our property and this wall help
to do so for this owner, the only thing that bothers me, if they didnot get the proper papers to build this wall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mnken on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 09:19 pm: Edit Post

I call it eye polution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By McMansions on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 04:53 pm: Edit Post

Where I live they call these big and showy homes McMansions. That is not a compliment. Though the owners obviously think they are beautiful, most of us stare and wonder why people have a need to show off their wealth. I know several people who have more money than the owners of the McMansions, yet they have enough self-confidence they don't need to erect monuments to themselves.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By sixties girl on Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 10:01 am: Edit Post

What is wrong with helicopters landing at Jakes. They have been landing other places in Treasure Beach from way back in the sixties.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 10:26 pm: Edit Post

Ahh Sixties Girl, the earlier passengers were refreshing themselves after a hunt for green gold.

The current passengers are here to dispose of yellow gold.

The treasure that cannot be rushed to is the process and pleasure of downwinding from the pursuit of said gold. Best in one of our ground transports with sightseeing along the way.

I've never favoured helicopters, can't glide when the system fails, no goat mout meant. The noise and dust mentioned is not part of the Treasure package. Good for rescue and war.

If it's the aerial view, spare us the noise and dust a let Google Earth do the flying.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Reminder on Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 06:52 pm: Edit Post

Please write those letters everyone. This is your opportunity to make your voice heard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Karen Kennedy on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 09:46 am: Edit Post

Please know that the people to whom we are supposed to be writing the letters ARE definitely paying attention.

Yesterday evening (Sunday), I received the following e-mail from Peter Knight, CEO of NEPA:

"Dear colleagues, friends & stakeholders,

I wish to acknowledge your submission/s.

The Agency has had an initial meeting with the ENGO-JEAN and has agreed to pursue this matter with the 'developer', the Parish Council and the NRCA. Hopefully, we should be having a meeting with the "developer" and the Parish Council during the course of the week. You will be advised subsequently on the outcome."

I was gratified to have received a response--not only so quickly, but on a Sunday evening.

For anyone who cares about Treasure Beach and the impact this illegal wall may have, I urge you to write your letter today. There is no time to waste to protect the community you cherish.

PLEASE ACT NOW.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By If you don't ask.... on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 10:43 am: Edit Post

Do we know who the developer is?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Urgent on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 10:47 am: Edit Post

If you care about keeping the treasure in Treasure Beach and you are sick and tired of people doing whatever they want, even when they have been told to stop, write you letters now. Why do you think your rights don't count? You count as much as anyone else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger duRand on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 12:33 pm: Edit Post

Roger duRand sent a copy of the letter he posted to Hon. Christopher Tufton, Mr. David Gardner, and Mr. Peter Knight

Here is a copy of it:

text/rtfdoc
Roger duRand.rtf (5.8 k)


-TBNet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 01:25 pm: Edit Post

January 18, 2010.

Hon. Christopher Tufton, MP St. Elizabeth South West.

Mr. David Gardner, St. Elizabeth Parish Council.

Mr. Peter Knight, NEPA.

Sirs, regarding the sea wall constructed in Great Bay

St. Elizabeth by the Bicknell family. My opinions are based on

images of the site before, during and after construction.

Aesthetics: The wall is a visual insult and diminishes the

natural beauty that is one of the treasure and attractions

of the area.

Environmental: Apart from the loss of dune habitat for flora

and fauna, nesting turtles seem to have nowhere to lay their

eggs. If lights are not turned off at night in the later home

and suroundings, the turtles will be disoriented. There are

old crocodile paths in the area, they may have been lost.

Cultural: The wall was constructed without consultation with

the community and it has been reported that access to plans

by a local interested party were refused, so no objections

could be laid. The community has also lost an old swimming place.

I urge you all to speak to the community. Many cannot or will not

put their feelings on record.

Precedent: This wall could set a developmental precendent for any

that are able and would do a similar act in other places.

I offer these opinions in the hope that you will consider them

when making any decision on this wall and the development as a

whole. I am a Jamaican who owns land in Great Bay and I have

enjoyed walked the area many times in the past.

Sincerely,

Sent this morning, sorry about the reformatting.

turey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Remember Ivan on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 04:25 pm: Edit Post

Murnel suggested one of the reasons might be to safeguard the owners property from water damage in case of a hurricane. If so, that wall might not serve the purpose. If it does serve the purpose, might it then also serve to divert hurricane waves onto the property of others?

For those who did not see what Hurricane Ivan did to properties close to the water, especially those at or near sea level, I wish to remind you of the almost unimaginable force of the water. The sea grapes lining the beaches were torn out. The beautiful little rental houses along the waterfront at Jake's were torn apart. The block wall at Hikaru was ripped out, as was a portion of their tennis court. Fishing boats that had been pulled way up on the beach ended up in the trees. The many ton boulder that sat outside the entrance to the Billy's Bay fishing beach disappeared, never to be seen again. The only structures I can remember near the beach with minimal damage had foundations that started about 20 feet above sea level, and even those were not immune. I still have the photos of all this and they are downright scary.

I am guessing when Sally Henzell then designed and built her new home on Old Wharf, this is why she chose to build it up on stilts - to allow water to pass underneath. Miss Sally was there when Ivan hit Jake's and she is a wise woman and learned a lot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 03:11 pm: Edit Post

Mr. Tufton, Gardner and Knight, please add this to the previous.

Archaelogy and History: As the Taino people first settled in this part of the South Coast, artifacts are everwhere one digs deep enough. Often things are uncovered by rain.

If anything was destroyed or removed in the building of the wall that information is gone and their context lost.

I urge you all to bring in the Institute of Jamaica who is responsible for artifacts and the National Trust who is responsible for the integrity of any site if there is a possibility that there may be artifacts there.

I am the same, Surrey BC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Murray on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 03:40 pm: Edit Post

I have just emailed NEPA, the St. Elizabeth Parish Council and the Hon. Mr. Tufton raising a number of points on what I understand so far about the wall. I'll go and take a look at the wall myself in the next few days, and will follow up as needed if I find that anything needs to be said differently or additionally.

Does anyone living in Old Wharf happen to know if sea turtles traditionally nest in that general area? I'm not asking (and would prefer that it not be said on this forum) whether nests have been found right in the spot where the wall is now, but if anyone knows of them in the general area then it seems to me that is a concern to be raised with NEPA, at a minimum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Curious on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 02:40 pm: Edit Post

Has anyone else written letters? I am not asking to see the letters, though that would be interesting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 02:58 pm: Edit Post

Thanks Roger. Outside help in one sense and much appreciated. In another sense we share a common sense of proportion, context, sensitivity and respect, it's assistance to another little speck on our planet that preserves what needs preserving while enabling the community to thrive.

Often the best way to allow this thriving to happen is to let it be, enjoy it with the people and tread softly.

What better way to enable change than working within the law and using the best tools at hand.

Some screw face and a bit of midnight oil for others. If the wall has to come down and the dune replaced, there will also be more work available than there was when it was put up.

I would welcome the Bicknells in a more sensible location up the hill and away from beach runnings. The sea wall is already in place, millions of years of limestone with caves, trees and silence. It must be over 100 feet high.

The Bad Duppies in Backseaside are not pleased. They want tobacco and listeners. At least that's what Spooks tells me. I'll introduce that wild Maroon that walks with his Taino people and is led to their places one day. Believe it or not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By against the wall on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 01:22 pm: Edit Post

It is my understanding that Jason Henzell is the developer and his construction company built the wall. Please correct me if I am wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By TB.Net on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 07:42 pm: Edit Post

Someone sent this to TB.Net and asked us to post it here.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/01/16/plum_island_w oman_wants_to_rebuild_on_beach/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed5


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Here we go again on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 10:19 pm: Edit Post

Would like the developer being Jason Henzel confirmed or denied.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Here we go again on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 05:07 pm: Edit Post

Jason Henzel, yes or no?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fed up on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 05:21 pm: Edit Post

Everybody come to Jamaica and do whey dem want to do.The government dem too slack.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By up north on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 12:22 am: Edit Post

Read this,
here the mansion has been built already

http://www.sxmislandtime.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9102:s xm-pride-paying-close-attention-to-cupecoy-beach&catid=41:frontpage


[Note: there is some objectionable language in the comments section of this link -TBNet]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bowl on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 09:22 pm: Edit Post

I see nothing wrong with the wall.
We should take a closer look at what is happening
there. Mr. Bicknel don't have a beach. The Old wharf beach begins at the western end of the wall.
The beach is open to the public. Mr. Bicknel is within his rights to protect his property. Why the
developers didn't have guidelines on what to do and not to do when they were selling land to Mr. Bicknel ?. Before I go any further I must point out that I am not defending Mr. Bicknel, I don't even know the gentleman or any member of his family. In front Mr. bicknel's land is all coral
reef.no where to bring in a boat. My vision is that the wall might be a blessing to the beaches east and west of the wall.
On the matter of the sand domes and the turtles
there comes a time when some things have to go.
If we want to preserve the turtles then we go into turtle farming like they do in Caymaan Isl.
If we are so cut up about the wall being ugly and
blocking view the the next thing we will want is to remove the bluff so that we can see Back Seaside or Aligator Pond.
I think Mr. Bicknel should be left alone and we should focus on the use of the beach and the roads
entering the beach.
Instead of fighting Mr. Bicknel (which will be a losing battle) why don't we ask him for help with
the canal. That type of gabion basket stone wall
is what the canal needs. Please Mr. Bicknel if you have any leftover material from your wall could you do some thing to the canal. Remember you will have to pass over that ugly as is thing
to go to your proposed house.
p.s. If the bluff was not there then there would
no Great Bay.
Guidance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 10:21 pm: Edit Post

I have copied my letter tonight also to the Hon. Edmund Bartlett, M.P., Minister of Tourism. I hope everyone who cares is getting those letters and emails in! GET UP, STAND UP.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Monuments on Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - 07:27 pm: Edit Post

I am aghast at the insensitivity of people who build huge structures on beaches.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By To Bowl on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 - 09:23 am: Edit Post

You usually have an interesting perspective, Bowl. Even though I am against the wall I must say I agree with some of your comments. I most agree with how wonderful it would be if Mr. Bicknell did something to help with the canal whether or not he has any leftover material from his wall. I say this for two reasons. One, Mr. Bicknell has donated to the Sports Park which is liked by some and not by others, but there is no one who thinks the canal is OK so this would be not something that is controversial. {edited by TBNet] I disagree about the sea turtles. That's like saying if Jamaica wants to preserve its fish it should turn to fish farming. Where would that leave our fishermen?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Be a good neighbor on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 - 11:04 am: Edit Post

I think it would gain the Bicknels goodwill from the TB community if they would do something for the whole community like helping with the canal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Confirmation on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 - 02:55 pm: Edit Post

Yes, Mr. Jason Henzell's company is the developer of the Bicknell property that is being discussed here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 - 06:28 pm: Edit Post

I would like to say something about coastal ecosystems. A good definition of a beach is "sand in motion." Beaches generally wax and wane in response to bad weather, time of the year, tides and so on. Over time, though, beaches are often stable because they are protected by coral reefs, mangroves, seagrasses, beach vegetation, and the natural configuration of the land. Chances are, if you have a beach, conditions are favourable for beach development.

What developers tend to do is disrupt that stability. They don't want to live with the times when the beach is small, and they build much too close to the sea. So they then have to build coastal structures to protect their beach from its natural waxing and waning, and this almost inevitably has implications for other parts of the beach. As one part builds up, another part declines. This can be seen in many places in the north coast, but a really good example is to be found in Negril. Now, many resort owners are facing catastrophic beach erosion and have to put in expensive coastal works to protect their properties.

A big sand dune with mature vegetation is generally an indication of a stable coast. Vegetation does not have time to grow if the dune is only a year or two old. Perhaps someone from Treasure Beach could say how long the dune at Old Wharf had been there. It is my belief that leaving the dune intact would not only have provided important habitat for turtles and other organisms, but would have been good coastal protection for the owners.

The practice of building on stilts well set back from the sea is what NEPA should insist on in a place like Treasure Beach - well, possibly everywhere on the coast. Beach vegetation should never be touched - it is hard to establish, hard and often slow to grow. What typically happens is the hardy beach vegetation which is stabilizing the beach is taken out, and then exotic plants are put in which struggle and often fail.

But for me, these difficult issues come down to a simple issue: respect. Do people respect and revere the natural resources that have attracted them to an area in the first place, or do they simply see them as backdrop for their houses or hotels? For me, I find beauty and mystery in nature and I regard all its manifestations with awe and the uttmost respect.

For me, turtles in farms will never approach the value of a healthy coastline, with the miracle of a turtle returning to the beach where they were born, some 30 or so years later, digging a deep hole for eggs, and then the further miracle of the hatchlings race to the sea.

Treasure Beach still has gorgeous natural features. I hope they will be respected and protected. I hope they will never be traded or sold for short term gains, like the making permanent a canal that should never have been constructed in such a way and was built illegally. Intact natural features will keep people coming to Treasure Beach long after they have stopped coming to those parts of Jamaica which have been ruined by short sightedness and greed and poor governance.
Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 - 06:35 pm: Edit Post

Seems like some are suggesting a buyout or a sellout.
"If the bluff was not there then there would
no Great Bay." If memory serves correctly, I think the Bluff was there BEFORE Great Bay, it was not built to shelter Great Bay. Wow, better not say my full piece because I am apparently out of touch with a people and place that nurtured me in my earliest years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Agree on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 07:28 am: Edit Post

Agree the Bicknells assistance with fixing the canal would be quite welcome. From what I have heard they have the resources, though they have no obligation to do so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neighbor on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 12:50 pm: Edit Post

From what I saw of people passing by Jake's Construction Company and Tankwell worked together on the construction at this property.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Solution on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 - 02:28 pm: Edit Post

I fully agree with "Be a good neighbour"! Take down the wall and fill the canal with the stones from the wall - elegant solution to solve two [edited by TBNet] situations.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By NO to concrete on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 12:59 pm: Edit Post

If "fixing" the canal means Bicknell would line it with stone and concrete, I vote NO. Mother Nature is correcting the situation without any help from us. Trees and grasses are now growing in the canal and will help hold the soil so mud doesn't spill into the sea and further destroy the reef.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By my story on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 10:38 am: Edit Post

If someone gave a million dollars to the sports park, would that justify tearing down paradise to build a wall? At what price do we abandon our values? I cannot say anymore than the pictures above. Take a good look at the before and after, then search your soul.

Re. the age of the sand dune Ms. McCaulay, I'm a man of 50, who swam among those reefs and coves as a boy. The dunes were there before me. No doubt my great greats swam and fished there as well (my great grandfather's house still stands not too far from there). Those photos make my eyes water when I think of the beauty, and all the memories and history that have been forever erased. At what price?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By good on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 - 06:31 pm: Edit Post

bowl you always come good sorry you dont get bite of the week here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Very Sad on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 04:44 pm: Edit Post

What My Story and Miss McCawlay have had to say are very moving. I read each thing several times and I now feel extremely sad. I am sad the government of Jamaica does not value the natural beauty of its own county enough to put some strict laws into place and to enforce these laws no matter who breaks them. I am sad some of the people who are building seem to have such little regard for keeping the beaches and coastline intact and healthy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By On the QT on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 06:30 pm: Edit Post

I'm sorry but Mr. Bicknell fixing the canal is not going to make me feel any better about that wall he is built and it's not going to appease me. Someone else mentioned that the canal is much better now than lined with concrete.

I spoke with a fisherman the other day who is over 80...the large sand bluff that Mr. Bicknell's building is going to go on was there as far back as he can remember and his grandfather used to tell him stories about sea grapes over there. The smaller sand dune that bordered the beach at the foot of 'the wall' has been there as long as he can remember as well. That small sand dune is now gone.

Those pictures make this tragedy seem more shocking. Treasure Beach people, you're selling your soul.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Amputation on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 05:31 pm: Edit Post

I have a feeling none of the people who build structures close to the beach want to make Treasure Beach into another Negril. I have never met the Bicknells but I want to think they did not intend to disrupt nature by building a home that suited their needs. But it will not take many more structures like the Bicknell wall to totally change the character of Treasure Beach. It's like losing one toe and then another and another until finally you realize your foot is amputated and gone forever.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mrs. R on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 08:40 pm: Edit Post

If someone gave a million dollars to the sports park, would that justify tearing down paradise to build a wall? At what price do we abandon our values? I cannot say anymore than the pictures above. Take a good look at the before and after, then search your soul

Amen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Friday, January 22, 2010 - 01:40 pm: Edit Post

Just saw a glimpse of a house that is hi tech and could be suitable for the location.

There is a Diana Krall musical, the Girl from Ipanima, with a shot of a house that mushrooms from the earth and looks like flying saucer on top. Brazil?

Deeply anchored, dune etc left as is, no sea wall, any wave just flows around. I thought it would be as otherworldly as the Bluff.

Still, nothing can be as super natural as what was there. Nothing beats an unspoiled sea front. Witness the many paintings over the centuries, especially by moonlight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fisherman on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 - 10:27 pm: Edit Post

{edited by TBNet}

Let's not use a sieve to carry water, bowl.
Get the letters of objections in please.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hoping on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 08:11 am: Edit Post

I hope Mr. Harvey Reynolds sent his strong objections to the three gentlemen in addition to posting it here on TBnet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By To Mr. Reynolds on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 12:33 pm: Edit Post

Mr. Reynolds the people in charge do not read TBnet. Please mail or email or fax them your letter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 04:20 pm: Edit Post

NEPA has issued an enforcement notice concerning the wall at Old Wharf. I do not know what it says yet, but I have asked for it, under the Access to Information Act.

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A Tourist View of The Wall on Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 12:39 pm: Edit Post

We left Treasure Beach with a tear in our eye yesterday after spending time in your beautiful community for the first time. Treasure Beach was wonderful and we adored everyone we met. Before going back to the airport we asked our driver to take us near the wall that so may people are talking about. Our opinion which probably doesn't count for much is it is a horrible structure, much too large for where it is. We do not know enough about turtles and fish and beaches to comment on how the wall may affect those, but we think the wall is inappropriate.

We do plan to come back to Treasure Beach but we know we will not stay in any place that is close to the wall. We don't want to see that wall ever again. We don't need that kind of thing to welcome us back. I pity the people who have to see it every day.

We would help to fight it if we could.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger duRand on Thursday, January 21, 2010 - 11:03 pm: Edit Post

We are not able to put ourselves into the minds of Jason or the Bicknells. I give them the benefit of the doubt.[edited by TB.Net]
Perhaps his architects and engineers are ignorant of the special restrictions in this fragile environment. It's hard to believe they are ignorant of the permitting requirements. But ignorance is as dangerous as evil, in the consequences of its reckless force. [edited by TB.Net]

It rightly falls to the government to regulate the energies and ambitions of wealth into channels that are not harmful to the greater society, balancing the rights of all, and protecting the least from the greatest.
[edited by TB.Net] There is probaby even an official bias toward 'development' at any cost. After all, is not Jamaica a 'developing nation'? The government can mortgage the country's future for short-term
economic activity.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 05:48 pm: Edit Post

What esablishments are in the general vicinity of 'The wall'?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By To NEPA on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 08:16 pm: Edit Post

Yes!! Thank you NEPA!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bowl on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 09:34 pm: Edit Post

Ha Ha, I have a willie penny to bet that that wall
never come down.
Not even by mother nature's storm surge.
The wall is ugly yes, but you don't see it from
Calabash Bay, you don't see it from Great Bay.
One have to go Old Wharf or Tranquility to see the wall. These beaches are seldom used. We only want
to make sure they are not captured. Too bad about
the turtle nesting place.
I don't study (coastal ecosystem/ sand in motion)
as Miss McCaulay stated above but as an old
dinasaur of TB who have seen the erosion and
rebuilding of our beaches from storm surges.
I might not live to see this but when the sand back up against that wall it will bury 3/4 of it
and we will be getting bigger and better beach,
and whoever don't believe me all you have to do
is live 20 years longer.
I might be a John the Baptist here but that is
what I fore see. And thanks to TB net. for putting
out my bits.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 09:21 am: Edit Post

I have further learned that the developers DID ask NEPA what permits were needed before they commenced construction and were told none. This is why getting a rational, fair and efficient regulator is the most important challenge we face. I will say more when I know more.
Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By No Laws on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 10:09 am: Edit Post

Sometimes no laws are broken and this may very well be true in the case of the design and construction of the wall. As those who go to establishments on Old Wharf or live on Old Wharf have learned, there is no law against ugliness or blocking the views or damaging the nesting places of sea turtles. This is an unfortunate thing but true.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 02:32 pm: Edit Post

Bowl might be right that sand will accrete against the wall. But very likely it will deplete somewhere else...and that is when the trouble starts because then that person wants to put up coastal structures to defend their beach.

I went to see a place in St. Ann last weekend, because the people were complaining they had been blocked off from the beach. The public access led down to a tiny beach, much eroded. But what was striking was all the walls and groynes into the sea, all to protect individual beaches. There was no way anyone could get from one beach to the next without going into the sea.

Hope I get to see Bowl's willy penny - it's been a long time since I have seen one of those!

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 11:00 am: Edit Post

Willie penny is no ante Bowl, cough up some dubloons. You may be right, our grandchildren may enjoy the beach that manifests, if the wall survives objections and nature.

If the wall stays, the bet would be on Tankweld VS Huracan.

Another bet is: If our environmental protectors allow such things, when is the next Great Wall going up? Precedent, work for some and keeping up with the Bicknells.

Maybe NEPA should call in the Bad Duppies for advice, they have a better perspective and a few centuries of watching runnings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mnken on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 11:01 am: Edit Post

Yes, but Ms. McCaulay, when the developers asked about building a wall, did they show blueprints or anything? Or did they just say "hey we are going to build a little wall, is that OK?"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mystory on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 09:58 pm: Edit Post

You may be on to something there with the duppies turey. There used to be a number of tombs just inland, and windward, of the wall many years ago. I wonder if they were removed in a dignified manner when all this "progress" came to Old Wharf. Of course they may not have anywhere to hide if the grape trees were eliminated, unless they are good divers. Watch out!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glad on Tuesday, January 26, 2010 - 08:07 am: Edit Post

I do not know what an Enforcement Order is but I am thinking it is something like a Temporary Restraining Order where I live. Is this correct Miss McCawlay? It warms my heart to know government bodies in Jamaica are taking the matter of this wall more seriously than I imagined they would. Even if the wall is allowed to remain - which I hope it will not, the owner and developer may have learned an important lesson: No matter who you are you are expected to follow rules. I also think the people who wrote the letters should feel good to know they made an impact. Life is good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lisa on Monday, January 25, 2010 - 10:44 pm: Edit Post

Is it too late to write letters? I'm just back from treasure beach and am appalled at the wall, it used to be our favourite swimming spot as well as being exceptionally beautifull, I couldn't bear to look at it last week. I can't understand how it got built with nobody doing anything untill now, or so it seems? When did the work start ?
Why do neither the owners of the land or the developers have nothing to say, why do they not see removing a whole sand dune as wrong, asthetically as well as morally due to the many very serious enviromental issues discussed here? Is the dune not classed as part of the beach and coastline which is public property and Cannot be altered ?
It's an awfull state , hideous in fact!
Although so much dammage has been caused already I think it should all be put back and the offenders should be fined and ordered to make it as good as possible. It would never be identical but it would be the best answer and fair!
If only it could have been stopped sooner before such alot of dammage has been done and upsett caused.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 10:16 am: Edit Post

Indeed Mystory, these are probably our 18th/19th Century people. The more ancient resting places of our Taino are usually only found by a bulldozer.

The bones are usually discarded and pots smashed. Fraid of 'Science'.

Any cibas (stone Zemis/tools) or very rarely, guanines (native alloy of gold/silver/copper etc nose/earpeices) may be saved as curiosities.

I included history/archaelogy in my objection to the wall. While there may not be graves everywhere, there certainly are pottery shards and rarely fine celts and Zemis anywhere. And yes, the spirits tell us who is disrespecting the ancestors when these 'books' are lost to us.

The spirits of enthousiasm for the stories of my ancestors and the spirits of: "Turey, one man from .... just buy a ..... from ..... an dem tek it to ....." Gone. Another chapter recorded in the ceramics of the women or the three dimensional glyphs that are Zemis, lost to us who they were intended to teach and inspire.

http://faculty.smu.edu/bakewell/BAKEWELL/texts/panerelacion.html

This link to a letter by Cacique Guanikeyu Torres:

http://www.mail-archive.com/nativenews@mlists.net/msg04680.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 11:26 am: Edit Post

There are maybe 25 people that are enjoying the then beach in what looks like a family Sunday? swim. That's 25 people that cannot repeat that pleasure.

Good news is that runners and strollers can have easy passage. I assume the boundary is marked by the outside of the wall.

Pleading for the turtles; will lights from the later building misdirect them and will there be security lights the scale of the wall that will rob us of our nightsky viewing pleasure.

When one has seen the Milky Way and the Stars and Galaxies on a super clear night, without telescope, it is never forgotten. This is not possible when there is too much man made light masking this pleasure, doing things with our circadian rhythms and throwing off creatures dependent on star and moonlight for navigation.

If anyone has not had the Milky Way explained, ask someone when it is visible.

Our cosmic context is one of the roads to humility.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 08:01 am: Edit Post

Short answer to mnken is - I don't know. I have asked for the correspondence, using the Access to Info Act. But I do think the onus is on NEPA to ask for whatever information is required to make a good decision.

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 12:42 pm: Edit Post

Diana,
I emailed Peter Knight, as well as Gardner and Tufton, on Monday, asking whether any actions are being taken or contemplated to bring the project into full compliance with building, land use, and environmental requirements. I have had no response, as yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Saw the Wall on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 12:39 pm: Edit Post

It has been built as a retaining wall because the land was almost all sand dune. It is a lot larger than I had imagined from looking at the photos. In places it appears to be almost 30 feet high so the view of the bluff is partially blocked from many vantage points. I am guessing it extends easily 200 feet long on the longest side. The residence will be built at the top which will serve to block views of the bluff even more than now. It reminds me of walls of old castles I have seen.

I find it unimaginable that any responsible governmental agency would allow land such as this to be built upon whether or not it is physically possible. I have not yet viewed the new commercial by the Jamaican Tourist Board, but I am guessing they have not chosen to feature either the wall or the canal. Tourists do not come to a place to see ugliness or to have their views of beauty blocked. I would suggest the Government of Jamaica get its act together before Treasure Beach looks like Negril or Ocho Rios; once people stop coming here, they will go to another island, and Jamaica will lose even more revenue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JD on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 06:56 pm: Edit Post

We do plan to come back to Treasure Beach but we know we will not stay in any place that is close to the wall. We don't want to see that wall ever again. We don't need that kind of thing to welcome us back. I pity the people who have to see it every day.

Amen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don't Hold Your Breath on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 07:53 am: Edit Post

Roger, I also wrote to all three gentlemen. I have received a response from Mr. Knight but nothing from the other two. As a matter of interest, I wrote to MP Tufton on another matter several months ago and never even had a response from him acknowledging he had received my communications much less answering my question. As a taxpayer, I found this lack of responsiveness annoying.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Our MP on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 04:21 pm: Edit Post

Same here regarding MP Tufton. Someone told me he is overworked and his staff is too small. Is that true?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Height on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 08:12 am: Edit Post

I have heard the wall is taller on the Taino Cove side. Does anyone have the exact measurements? Are there photos which would show the height of the wall from that side?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Questions on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 01:36 pm: Edit Post

Miss McCawlay's comment: The permits required depends very much on what is planned. If just a wall, then a beach license would be needed IF THE WALL WAS ON THE FORESHORE. This is not. If the wall resulted in the clearing and excavation of a beach, an environmental permit is needed. We think this does apply. NEPA is not sure.

My response to the above: The beach was cleared and excavated.

Miss McCawlay's comment: I have further learned that the developers DID ask NEPA what permits were needed before they commenced construction and were told none.

My response to the above: WHO told them none and was this done in writing to a specific request along with the plans? We heard about permissions being granted in a meeting about the seaplane, and it later appeared as if what was said about permissions being granted was not entirely accurate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cherry Brady Clarke on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 01:16 pm: Edit Post

I am horrified at the desecration of Old Wharf. My grandfather lived in Treasure Beach. My mother and her siblings grew up in Treasure Beach. I played at Old Wharf as a child. What a monstrosity that wall is. [edited by TB.Net]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Want to scream on Sunday, January 31, 2010 - 06:53 pm: Edit Post

I am censoring myself as I write this, though that is difficult to do. I want to SCREAM in protest, but what good would that do. Three of us went to see the wall. In person it is worse than any picture could show. I am not talking about the workmanship. I am talking about the absolute lack of sensitivity of anyone involved in designing or paying for or constructing the wall. Jamaica cannot afford to let itself be ruined by this type of construction.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 02:36 am: Edit Post

Please write and email to the three addresses given above. Put screams and protests to better work than causing sore throat and hypertension.

Jumping up and down in the hot sun with signs is usually forgotten quickly too. Signed letters of objection are on record and cannot be ignored.....err, should not be ignored.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 07:40 am: Edit Post

To everyone asking for details - were blueprints sent, how detailed were the developers requests about whether or not they needed a permit - I don't know yet. I have asked for the documents under our Access to Info laws but I have not got them yet. As soon as I have, I will share the information.

I have to sadly say that it is quite usual to get no response from government agencies to correspondence from the public.

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Auto Answer on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 09:51 am: Edit Post

Not saying the U.S. has a wonderful government and Jamaica does not...
My experience in the U.S. is when one writes to a politician one sometimes gets a response which directly addresses the subject matter of the letter. If not the government official normally sets up an "auto answer" response in which the sender's letter is actually acknowledged-kind of "I want you to know I received your letter. I receive a lot of letters and do not always have time to answer them individually, but it is important to me to know you cared about something enough to get in touch with me."
This is something a computer literate STUDENT can set up. It is more a matter about CARING than about technical expertise.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 02:37 pm: Edit Post

Once, all would have sat down over drinks and dinner, had a good chat and a focused but civil discussion on matter/s. MP's or the PM would sit back, listen and give direction and advice.

Most would leave satisfied at the demonstration of open governance and a good meal. That's what some of my old friends and family tell me.

Who one voted for was not relevant. We were Jamaicans and friends, mostly.

Have we forgotten? Public SERVANTS.

And: Glasnost.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Public servants? on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 06:44 pm: Edit Post

Down here it is hard to convince anyone the government cares about anything except geting their GCT taxes. I don't know anyone who thinks our officials are public servants. Maybe I only know the wrong people?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sally T on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 10:04 pm: Edit Post

This wall looks to be built out of galvanized metal baskets filled with stone. We used to use something like them in streams at home for fisheries enhancement projects but soon found out that they rusted out within 10 years. If they have used the same material to build this wall maybe, if you're lucky, it will soon fall apart on its own.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Monday, February 01, 2010 - 07:52 pm: Edit Post

Yes Public Servants, if this separation is not bridged, we will continue wasting our collective time, energy and treasure on leaping hurdles and surviving conflicts of various sorts with those who should be encouraging and assisting.

We are not an easy people to work with, I can understand this and the inherited backlogs and inefficiencies. Simple manners and consideration is all it needs, for everyone public and private.

I hope that no one is under the illusion that they are ruling 'Dei Gratia'. We let go of rulers in '62 remember. Grace has never left us.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Observer on Tuesday, February 02, 2010 - 09:29 am: Edit Post

The wire is coated with heavy plastic so I doubt it will rust out within 10 years. Even if it does, a decade of waiting and hoping is far too long. I believe the wall never should have been built in the first place.

The house to be built on top of the dune does not yet appear to have been started. This will be yet another impediment to what was once one of the prettiest and most serene views in Treasure Beach.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bowl on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 07:37 pm: Edit Post

In the olden days a beautiful house was called
a "Bucktoe", reason for this is people had to walk
because there was no transport, so when they pass
a beautiful house they gaze and buck them toe.
I hope Mr. Bicknel put up something to buck toe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jamaican or Not? on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 02:37 pm: Edit Post

Over the years I have seen many posts on TB.net about the awful things that can happen when Jamaicans sell their land to those from America, England or other countries. The Jamaicans are blamed for selling out and allowing outsiders to buy land too cheap instead of keeping it in their family or selling it to another Jamaican. I find it interesting the land with the wall has been sold from one Jamaican to another to another. Keeping land in Jamaican hands instead of selling to people from abroad does not always guarantee a good outcome. Right now I can think of several people from England and America who bought property from Jamaicans and they ended up making what they bought better instead of worse. This is merely an observation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 08:48 am: Edit Post

Yes Jamaican or Not, both Jamaicans and non who have purchased land have made things better, some not.

Some of both catagories have made it better financially but harmed the surroundings.

Some have made the surroundings pleasing and green but have not thrived financially.

Let's see what Bucktoe is erected. The Great Wall has caused a spotlight to be cast on the house site. Lets see if the architects are also artists and biologists, if the wall stays.

Point is, this is a bold statement of the intent and insight of the developers and owners.

Let's see what it says. The wall has spoken so far.

Meantime, does the community have a say in the sort of house erected in their community?

Where will the grey and lav effluent go? Recycled or sea dumped? Lights?

Pity the whole planning permission process happens behind closed doors. Any idea why my fellow democratic Jamaicans?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Thursday, February 04, 2010 - 08:59 am: Edit Post

One should be careful of what one wishes for. It could manifest.

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20100204/news/news2.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By St. Bess Parish Council on Saturday, February 06, 2010 - 09:30 am: Edit Post

The community has no say in the sort of house erected in the community. If so I could see this getting much more into areas of taste as opposed to environmental considerations.

I am curious as to who sits on the Parish Council because THEY seem to have the say. Does anyone know the names of the members or even of some of the members.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Conflict of Interest on Sunday, February 07, 2010 - 08:40 am: Edit Post

If someone sits on the Parish Council and they are also the owner of land that is being considered by the Council or if they represent someone whose plan is being voted on isn't this considered a conflict of interest?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Important Questions on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 08:08 am: Edit Post

2 questions:

Who sits on our Parish Council?

Does anyone have an email address for John Maxwell. Cannot find one even by asking The Observer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By info on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 09:03 am: Edit Post

Here it is:

jankunnu@gmail.com
{corrected by TBNet}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rebecca on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 10:14 am: Edit Post

I am absoulutely aghast at the phone call I just had. First, I had to call the phone number listed in the phone book for the Black River Parish Council twice as the first time I called I was transferred several times and then disconnected. I finally got someone who could answer what I thought was a simple question, who is on the board of the Parish Council?

The person asked me where I was from, etc. A fair question as my American accent would make her wonder. I explained that I was a Jamaican citizen and as such wanted to know who was on the Parish Council representing me. After some to do - making it seem I was asking for confidential information of which it should not be any of my business, I got the following:

Jeremy Palmer - Chairman - Mayor of Black River
Donovan Pagon - Brae's River
Donald Simpson - Malvern
George Powell - Lacovia
Derrick Sangster - Mountainside
Cetany Holeness - Junction
STallyn Brown - Santa Cruz
Eroll Hummingbird - Ipswich
Audie Myers - Silo
Eroll Fisher - Balaclava
Mordant Mitchell - Black River
Sandra White - Brompton
Richard Parchment - Meyersville
Shirley Myers - Southfield
Ernest Hendricks - New Market

The Chairman for the Planning Committee is Donald Simpson. When I asked who else was on that committee I was told that she had three other calls waiting to be answered and she should be in a meeting and any further questions should be directed to the Mayor's office at 876-965-2036.

Wow, if it is this difficult to glean information which should be readily available to the public, well I am speechless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 04:18 pm: Edit Post

Ah Rebecca, welcome to my world! :-)

The plain fact of the matter is government agencies at both local and central levels are used to not being held to account by citizens. They are used to secrecy and when anyone asks for information, they try to block it almost as a reflex. And it is our fault as citizens, because we don't insist on our rights, we don't complain when we get the run around, we don't demand better service from our government.

Anyway, glad you got the information in the end.

Were you able to get contact information for Mr. Simpson?

Anyway, I have got the documents from NEPA now, following our Access to Information request, and I am just going through them. I will say more mid morning tomorrow.

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 12:02 pm: Edit Post

I have had no reply to any of the three gentlemen I emailed about the wall.

Having decades of dealings with government and quasi government offices, I have come to accept the absence of response to queries and requests as normal procedure or lack of. There is nothing normal about this practice when the responsibilities to and the expectations of those who these bodies serve are not met.

The reason/s may be: Overwhelmed due to inneficiency or accumulated backlog.

Short staffed.

No precedent in responding to the public.

Tradition of secrecy.

Poor record keeping.

Cyaan Badda.

There are other possibilities. I hope they are not applicable. As I am left in the dark, I can only guess at them.

If there are acceptable reasons for these defficiences, they may be answered here. Surely someone connected to this issue reads this forum!? I will understand if they have to get signed permission after a special commitee meeting and a prepared response that may take a few weeks. I've waited years for others.

These practices alienate the public that is supposed to be served and creates hurdles and time wasting in our lives that make things even more difficult then they are.

I look forward to the open and transparent communication of the Public Sector with the Private Sector in this and future correspondances and communications.

I am embarrassed for my country when I hear the stories told above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 07:23 pm: Edit Post

Eric, I have just now emailed, again, to the appropriate officials, and copied TBNet. If you feel it would be appropriate, please post it for others to see. Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Embarrassed 2 on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 06:43 pm: Edit Post

And I am embarrassed I invested money in this country, followed all the rules and expected fair treatment for all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john maxwell email on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 07:30 pm: Edit Post

John Maxwells email is not listed correctly above.

Correct one is:

jankunnu@gmail.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 12:23 am: Edit Post

Emailed John Maxwell, also the Editors at The Gleaner, with access info to TBNet and urgings to follow this story. Hope I was provocative enough to merit another look and SOME INK!

Eager to hear what Diana finds!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 01:36 pm: Edit Post

It would be good if pics of the development and wall could be taken from the sea. It should show how the coastline has been affected.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 05:58 pm: Edit Post

A photo from the sea would be worth a thousand words. I have seen the wall from Dennis Abrahams' boat, and its alien, massive, looming aspect is truly dismaying. One can imagine with dread what might be planned to surmount it.

I am reminded of the man who climbs the pristine mountain, admires the vista of the city and plain below, and builds a great house at the very site. He enjoys his view now, while the city and plain dwellers must look at their defiled mountain. Respect?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don't Understand on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 08:09 am: Edit Post

Why someone was allowed to build on a beach is truly a puzzlement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 07:46 am: Edit Post

Hi everyone, I have not quite completed going through the documents in relation to the wall, and also have not got the enforcement notice that was served by NEPA. I have asked again for it. What I can say at this point: NEPA saw this construction as early as late July last year. They visited the site several times. The field people made various recommendations, none of which were acted upon. NEPA did not check their own law, consult in detail with the parish council, nothing sensible.

The developers have appealed the enforcement notice to the Minister of the Environment, who is the PM, but I think it will be Minister Vaz hearing the appeal. Since I don't yet know what the notice said, I can't give more details. The appeal hearing is tomorrow. I asked to attend and have been given permission.

In haste,
Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By TBNet on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 10:20 am: Edit Post

A reader sent in a couple of pics from the sea.

1
2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Abomination on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 - 07:40 pm: Edit Post

{edited by TBNet} what's needed is Mr. Peter Knight to come see this [edited by TBnet} for himself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 11:40 am: Edit Post

These photos should appear on the front pages of our two major newspapers so the Minister at the meeting does not miss seeing what he is making a judgement about.

The one taken before construction with the famillies taking their swim should give an idea of the changes.

How many people wrote or emailed in objections to the wall?

Myself, Mr Harvey, Mrs Kennedy, that's three. Not interested in ID's just numbers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ZED on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 01:42 pm: Edit Post

BUILDING::PERMITTING::APPROVAL::INSPECTION::ENFORCEMENT
PROCESS


There is a strong sense in this thread about the lack of response to the concerns of stakeholders (near and far) over the lack of Transparency & Accountability of how the Building Process ought to work.

We have begun, through this ordeal, to think of this Rampart-SeaWall situation as the Wall Behind the Wall or Which Walls are we Banging Our Heads Against.

Roger duRand and others, who in their practice, are attempting to comply with a clear-cut, hopefully streamlined regulatory chain of events from the completed Design of a Project; to Submission of Working Drawings to the designated Agency or Building Dept., adhering to local Building Codes (Safety;Security;Structural...); Zoning Provisions (notably allowable Density or Building coverage of a particular Site & "Setback" distances from neighbours' properties, roads, cliffs, beaches...); Environmental Protection (NEPA).

St Bess's Building Dept has, for example, requested percolation tests to assure that residential septic systems are capable of absorbing effluent, and rejecting applications of those that have failed. We assume that they have consulted on rough-ins of plumbing & electrical lines, hurricane tie-down strapping for roofs...in other words the inspecting of construction sections, walls, slabs that will be covered up and concealed from the eyes of "knowledgeable inspectors", who might say to the builder:

"Whoa! Hold dat donkey, man, you don't have the right size or amount of steel rebar in that column...you want di man's house to pancake like in Haiti-quake." Or, "mi know u suppose to be a good builder, but check di steel in yu slab, u know bout live loads...dead loads...deflections of ur concrete floor wid a hole lotta peeple party an jump up pon it...U hav rong size an placement of rebar"!

Perhaps, the little secret here may be that the Building Depts. of many Parish Councils, island-wide, are understaffed and applying a Building Code that although printed in Manual form, has not been approved legislatively. So interpretations could, conceivably, fall between the cracks.

www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20100207/news/news7.html

The conclusion may be drawn that the Architect-Engineer-Developer-Builder nexus might argue their confidence in a construction system, material or method of construction, especially non-traditional or innovative ones, regaling their professional expertise.

Perhaps also, no homeowner or developer-builder, more likely in rural locales of Jamaica, want to wait & wait & wait for an inspector to schedule and show up, so I am guessing, here, that shortcuts may occur. (Fact Check with the TB Building community)

Established Architect-Engineers, known to the Parish Council Building Depts' permit issuing & inspection teams, may garner more respect and "benefit of the doubt", as so-called experts.

In the interest of Transparency, one Parish Council, St James, has created a web-site, which outlines its organizational arms, and formats its Regulatory Building Process.

Government entities were supposed to have been somewhat standardized during the Seaga administration of the 1980s.
If that was the case, the St Elizabeth Parish Council organization ought to resemble, prominently, our cousin parish to the north.

Here is merely an Excerpt from the St James Parish Council for those who already follow the Laws, or who might be seeking Variances or Exceptions from those Laws or gathering ammunition for Protection of Rights.

Building Enforcement

(1) Illegal buildings are dangerous and pose a hazard to public safety. The Parish Council is authorized to issue stop notices, enforcement notices and injunctions to combat unlawful construction.

(2) The department conducts routine field inspections to search for illegal buildings. Others are reported by staff, Councillors and the general public.
Builders / owners are issued verbal warnings to stop illegal building activities when they are identified, and try to negotiate a suitable resolution of the problem.

(3) If illegal building activity continues, a stop notice is prepared and served.

(4)The stop notice is valid for 10 days then an enforcement notice is served which is valid for 3 days.

(5)If problem persists, the Parish applies to the court for an injunction.


www.stjamespc.org/static/garbageschedule/departments/roads&works/procedures.htm

As Diana McCaulay (JET) seems to be describing the predicament, we are swirling down a legalistic Alice in Wonderland rabbit hole,
where the talented, eagerly responsive Labour Minister of Information, Daryl Vaz, holds the balance scales between competing interests.

www.jamaicaobserver.com/letters/Chin_7377791
www.jamaicaobserver.com/letters/Hail-Vaz

This Wall has put Treasure Beach on Google Map, and all of us, who wish and plan fervently for sustainable community planning & building and have adopted green design principles are, at times, suspicious of over-scrupulous and whimsical orders of protected communities that often start from scratch and stifle creativity.

(By that, I mean, the idea or possibility of a Plan so restrictive that might, in this fiercely independent community of diverse settlers and shipwreck-ites that "covenants" would arise that would dictate just exactly how curvy or undulating or uniform your garden walls must be, as exist by conventional agreement for a white-washed Greek Island of memory.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By horrified on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 10:57 am: Edit Post

The wall prevents others from walking around, and the visual {edited by TBNet} cuts to the core. {edited by TBNet} You are so right on with that analogy of the man and the mountain Roger. There is a thought in my head that keeps screaming oh my God this can't be true!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By TBNet on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 02:53 pm: Edit Post

Please note that the wall does not prevent people from walking around it on the beach.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 06:58 am: Edit Post

I understand roughly 70 people sent letters of objection to NEPA. I don't know the count for the Parish Council,I did not do an Access to Information request to them, but will get around to it. Someone in TB could also do an ATI request to the Parish Council of course...

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bowl on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 09:37 pm: Edit Post

I will back up TBNet, no one is being prevented from walking or bathing on any of the beaches.
Can someone do census on the people of TB. and see
how many or for or against the wall.
My bet is a large percentage don't mind or don't care.
90% of the people against the wall don't live in TB.
There are some big boys (heavy pockets)that is from
right here but have not given back anything in terms of development yet they criticize people like Mr. Henzel or Mr. Bicknel who have created lots of employment for our locals.
If Mr. Bicknel instead of waiting on mother nature to back up the sand against the wall could shave off some of the sand
on his side and throw it over the wall and then truck in some more and give the critics quick fix beach then we will hear less complaining.
Like I said before, just bury the wall (3/4 of it)
And there he have a perfect levee, a lovely beach
and everybody happy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By horrified on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 - 08:31 pm: Edit Post

Thank you for that correction TBNet., and thank God for small mercies.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 11:31 am: Edit Post

Much has transpired in the past 24 hours:
I have been in contact with John Maxwell, who has in turn connected me with media and others who may have significant force. Cliff Hughes has invited Diana to speak on Nationwide this evening. Greg Christie, the Contractor General, whose office has permitting oversight, is intervening in the matter. Wendy Lee, of Jamaica Land We Love, has been engaged also, as have Lloyd D'Aguilar, Franklin McKnight, Vernon Davidson and Irie Vibes JM. It should be an eventful day!

If you want to see more photos of the wall, and the site before, Jamaica Land We Love has several on its website.

Mr. 'Bowl'; With respect, have you stood at the wall? It is 25 feet high at least. Any amount of sand 'thrown over' it will not create a permanent beach--more like a hill, that would not last through one storm of any strength. In fact, the hydraulic effects of the obstruction on adjoining beaches are yet to be seen , and I expect have never been considered. {edited by TBNet}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 12:45 pm: Edit Post

I am back from the appeal. I was only allowed to make a statement, but not stay to hear the arguments. The only reason I was allowed in the room was because of one of the letters of complaint we had written, and I was only allowed to outline the grounds of JET's objections already stated in the letter. So it was a good lesson - write those letters.

I was, however, allowed to show photos, which was good.

NEPA's position is still that : (a) no significant environmental harm has been caused; (b) no turtles nest there; and (c) the construction of the wall did not take place on a beach.

(I am not making this up!)

Will keep you posted.

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 01:55 pm: Edit Post

Diana, let me see if I understand! NEPA issued the enforcement notice which is being appealed, but simultaneously is advocating for the developer???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 02:29 pm: Edit Post

Bowl, if sand were used to cover part of the wall, where would that amount of sand come from?

Where did the sand that was excavated for the project go?

I hope it will not be used in someones building. Salt sand and cement are not good companions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 06:28 pm: Edit Post

Roger - NEPA issued an enforcement notice under the Town and Country Planning Act concerning the height of the wall, mostly. They maintain no permit was needed under the Natural Resources Conservation Authority Act, which is what I disagree with. But yes, they were very much advocating for the developer, with the additional wrinkle of the two government agencies - NEPA and the Parish Council - doing what I call the responsible government agency buckshuffle and pointing fingers at each other.

I do not know the result of the appeal yet - I guess I will find out soon.

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By witness on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 11:23 pm: Edit Post

Sand was definitely removed from the building site. I was behind a huge truck hauling sand out of Treasure Beach, heading up the hill towards the police station a few weeks ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rebecca on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 07:59 am: Edit Post

Sand is being taken out of a liscensed mining area in Ft. Charles and the trucks have been coming through TB lately. Are you sure it wasn't one of those trucks you saw?

To the best of my knowledge there has been no work done at this site for quite some time now.

Please, let's be careful to make sure we are passing on accurate information and not rumors or misinformation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By To Bowl on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 07:51 am: Edit Post

Bowl if right and wrong are decided by majority rule what would happen if the majority, even a small majority, decided it was OK to drive while intoxicated. Would that make it OK to break the law?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignorant of facts on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 09:15 am: Edit Post

I am not aware of the jobs Mr. Bicknell has created in the community. Aside from the people who are working on his wall and then probably the home he will have constructed on top of the property, could someone be kind enough to fill me in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 08:01 pm: Edit Post

A fine kettle of fish.
How did the Parish Council reconcile the massive construction with the lack of an approval from themselves?
By the way, everyone, Wendy Lee has given me quite a discouraging but informative short history of her efforts on behalf of Jamaica's environment at her website Jamaica Land We Love (which I urge you all to visit and read, and perhaps become members).
Also, Diana, is it possible to watch the entire film JAMAICA FOR SALE on line? I like the clips on the JET site-- good to see John Maxwell and Wendy speaking live!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Right? on Thursday, February 11, 2010 - 03:41 pm: Edit Post

Bowl I am disappointed in you for your comments. Let's say you are correct with your assumption that a large percentage of the residents of Treasure Beach don't mind or don't care about the wall. You're saying that makes it right? My conclusion is this means the population has not been sufficiently informed about how things like this may adversely affect their future and their children's future. What does it matter if Mr. Henzell and Mr. Bicknell have created lots of jobs for the locals? {edited by TBNet}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Florida on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 08:35 am: Edit Post

I have seen the picture {edited by TBNet} this thing look so teribble..where in T/beach is this wall located? This is so sad!! {edited by TBNet}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stu Ward on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 12:35 pm: Edit Post

Roger...Would you provide a LINK to Wendy Lee's website, Jamaica We Love (It doesn't pop up on my Search Engine)

JET's LINK to Jamaica For Sale

www.jamaicaforsale.net/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By FYI on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 03:47 pm: Edit Post

I just wanted to address this to Bowl, who incidentally, I have a lot of respect for.

Just because the majority might be in favour of something does not make it right.
The majority were once in favour of slavery but a few outcasts fought tirelessly against it.

I know a lot of people right from Treasure Beach here that thinks this wall is terrible. They will never say it publicly for obvious reasons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Where it is on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 01:35 pm: Edit Post

The wall is at about the farthest point in Old Wharf, kind of near Miss Winnie's sweet hotel and right past the public beach. It obscures the view of the bluff for many.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 12:24 pm: Edit Post

Looking at the before and after pictures posted here, I can see that the sloping dune could have been bulldozed vertical, the wall retaining it. So no sand may have been removed only redistributed.

Is there enough sand at the Fort Charles site to fill as Bowl suggested? Assuming the sea is going to redistrubute any fill sooner or later, more would have to be brought in to keep the shape.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 05:34 pm: Edit Post

www.groups.google.com/group/JamaicaLandWeLove is the site


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By location on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 07:20 pm: Edit Post

Based on the surrounding objects in the photos, I'd venture to say the wall is just upwind from where the tamarind tree used to be. The cove was just about the only safe place for non swimmers to bathe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ZED on Saturday, February 13, 2010 - 12:14 pm: Edit Post

HOW APPEALING?

Now that the "Wall Appeal" is in the ante-chambers of the Prime Minister's Office (OPM), who has the portfolio for Planning & Development, and whose office apparently has final say after any court cases for breaches of the Planning/Building process, should there be too much suspense of the outcome of his cabinet minister at the hearing?

Mr Golding has come out strongly in favor of a controversial 90 Day Development/Building Approval Process in response to developers' complaints about delays in the entire Approval/Permitting Process.

The Island's many Environmental NGO's interpret this move as a mechanism to exclude or mitigate the effects of Environmental Impact Assessments (EIA), which even now suffers under the burdensome lack of funding & capacity for the expertise of environmental engineers (coastal geologists...) to challenge the developers' civil/structural engineering might.

It seems that even the 3 week interval, now in effect for the public notice to straighten out the EIAs may go by the wayside.


But alas, NEPA's declaration that no breaches of the much weakened Beach Control Act (with special licenses etc) & the NRCA at the Old Wharf beach front property puts an out of kilter weight of proving otherwise.
As for the rest of us, under the proposed regimen, NEPA has stated that "only projects that need no EIA will be assessed and approved in 90 days or less, in essence, promoting full speed ahead.

And back to the (oh, so secretive-open government) Appeals hearing.
Prime Minister Golding has advised that "if potential developers were not in receipt of a response from the regulatory agencies within the 90-day deadline, they were to treat the applications as being approved and commence development"
...further the Prime Minister has voiced that "Jamaica cannot remain undeveloped solely to preserve the environment."
(from the Trafalgar Council 2008•04•2010)

Has Minister Vaz, or his equivalent, been so briefed by his party leader?

Images From Wendy Lee's Site "Jamaica We Love":

JAMROCK FROM AFAR:
Remember the Sensations of Awe & Reverence We Felt When We First Viewed Images of Our Beautiful (Blue-Green-Cloudy...), Restorative, Rugged, Fearsome- Fragile Planet from Space


2009•03•14:

http://JamaicaLandWeLove.googlegroups.com/web/Jamaica+satellite+image.jpg?gda=s6 I3ElEAAADGQfjm_KtzBorqsx6Zxk7M_Nz2QtT4aWpV9COZhs-KcGKh_--oSgAw_nsvI4ezOW2NpVW06i r3paVw2AHTRlPE4HdVteV3qTbjWYtu1SutnJVxXgp_nHWJXhfr7YhqVgA

2009•03•14: Life Before the Wall: Ahh! Our Swim Hole & A Plant- Anchored Sand Dune, as Meaningful a Local Experience as the Great Dune on Frenchman's near Si Wind

http://JamaicaLandWeLove.googlegroups.com/web/2009.03.14+BEFORE+1.jpg?gda=eWzsRU 0AAADGQfjm_KtzBorqsx6Zxk7Mdf2O5lI9B_xMrsmBQBlG5XGeJpOptxxZrv63glWXGM811LKzp1JqsK FDyjpxllGZENkPiFeTH2OSTHwt_1Rlwg

WALL EXCAVATION: The Incision

http://JamaicaLandWeLove.googlegroups.com/web/Excavation+for+wall.jpg?gda=urG_t0 0AAADGQfjm_KtzBorqsx6Zxk7MLX1loAym2Omwxl9W5HyrxjEnvI4MueINeIeOGpA3PXOQf_WghRi5q0 4p1A7gHihUENkPiFeTH2OSTHwt_1Rlwg

CONSTRUCTION SEQUENCES
2009•12•06

http://JamaicaLandWeLove.googlegroups.com/web/2009.12.06+WALL+3.jpg?gda=ZFqeDUsA AADGQfjm_KtzBorqsx6Zxk7Mdf2O5lI9B_xMrsmBQBlG5WXWUuygwh2DMk92tijMrYkl7L0n4r1OlWc0 FWonxWPiubMpev0V0VNeIZTqsfSLWQ

2010•01•02 (WITH HUMAN SCALE FIGURE)

http://JamaicaLandWeLove.googlegroups.com/web/2010.01.02+WALL+5.jpg?gda=o3UZSEsA AADGQfjm_KtzBorqsx6Zxk7Mdf2O5lI9B_xMrsmBQBlG5Rx9V2LOC5I5fmjzvjrvmPQl7L0n4r1OlWc0 FWonxWPiubMpev0V0VNeIZTqsfSLWQ

2010•01•02 (WITH BEACH PATH & ROUTING)

http://JamaicaLandWeLove.googlegroups.com/web/2010.01.02+WALL+6.jpg?gda=cdSkY0sA AADGQfjm_KtzBorqsx6Zxk7Mdf2O5lI9B_xMrsmBQBlG5cywRi90YbsOInJc6Weg-Ucl7L0n4r1OlWc0 FWonxWPiubMpev0V0VNeIZTqsfSLWQ

GAMBION CONSTRUCTION

"Gabions... are cages, cylinders, or boxes filled with soil or sand (or rock-like material) that are used in civil engineering, road building, and military applications.

The most common civil engineering use of gabions is to stabilize shorelines or slopes against erosion. Other uses include retaining walls, temporary floodwalls, to filter silt from runoff, for small or temporary/permanent dams, river training, channel lining.[2] They may be used to direct the force of a flow of flood water around a vulnerable structure...

Gabion baskets have some advantages over loose riprap because of their modularity and ability to be stacked in various shapes; they are also resistant to being washed away by moving water. Gabions also have advantages over more rigid structures because they can conform to ground movement, dissipate energy from flowing water, and drain freely. Their strength and effectiveness may increase with time in some cases, as silt and vegetation fill the interstitial voids and reinforce the structure."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabion

Gambions:Construction Specifications versus Considerations for Salt Spray Conditions on Coated Wire; & Design for "100 Year" Category 5 Hurricanes & "X" feet Storm Surges; Global Warming Predicted Sea Level Rise...Are you feeling Lucky?

www.gabions.net/downloads/Documents/MGS_Construction_Specification_Gabions_Mattr esses.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bowl Fan on Friday, February 12, 2010 - 06:44 pm: Edit Post

Bowl, I am another of your fans and have said so here before. This time I agree with the others who feel your comments are incorrect about majority rule. Please also do us the favor of not even suggesting someone who brings jobs to the area should receive any special favors. The law is intended to protect the rights of all people, rich or poor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 09:38 am: Edit Post

Dear Roger - re watching all of Jamaica for Sale on line - no, we can't do that due to the nature of the permissions we have received for the music we used in it...

NEPA has said they will advise next week of the result of the appeal re the wall...

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sorry Bowl on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 08:47 am: Edit Post

Another person who respects Bowl speaking out here. Realize your comments were your opinion but I think your majority rules idea is plain wrong. Laws must be upheld, even if the majority oppose them. We need to protect our people. We need to protect our environment. We need to protect Treasure Beach.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 11:25 am: Edit Post

Thanks ZED. I agree with Mr Golding's attitude and hope more red tape is cut so we have less hurdles to jump and less offices to negotiate.

We need more development in Jamaica. Clearing these obstructions will enable this.

It is the attitude of those carrying out development that allows degredation and uglification to happen. Unfortunately as far as I know, none of our public servants have training or experience in the ways of working with nature and cannot give the needed direction to developers. If there are any they have not revealed themselves by their actions. Don't be shy! Livity is calling.

Ugly is in the eye of the beholder and cannot be measured. Environmental degredation can.

Sin, in ancient times, was depicted as an archer whose aim was off. Our archers have yet to hit the target. Maintaining Jamaica's sweetness is our work, time to focus on the bullseye.

Jamaica is no longer 'For Sale' but available to amaze and heal on request and for free. That's what the animals, plants, Grandfathers and children say. They are never wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ZED on Sunday, February 14, 2010 - 08:36 am: Edit Post

CORRECTION: Spelling of "Gabion" (not "Gambion" in 2010•2•13 posting), my sleepy head must have been channeling Campion High School in Kingston...the Jesuit priests would not be pleased.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By VERY Concerned on Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 06:01 am: Edit Post

What day is NEPA supposed to issue their ruling? Is there anything we can do to impress the gravity of this situation on them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 11:13 am: Edit Post

NEPA will not be the ones taking a decision - it will be the Prime Minister and Minister Daryl Vaz. You could write or call either of them at Jamaica House.

Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By VERY Concerned on Tuesday, February 16, 2010 - 01:03 pm: Edit Post

I have never written to a Prime Minister but I am willing to do so. I am wondering if her reads his own mail or has a staff member do it for him. Is there an email address available please?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Worried on Monday, February 15, 2010 - 06:35 pm: Edit Post

If anyone has an update [edited by TB.Net] please post it. I am very worried for the future of Treasure Beach.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Wednesday, February 17, 2010 - 01:04 am: Edit Post

I hope the PM and Mr Vaz read this forum as it is relevant to the Not So Great Wall. Political correctness may not be the guiding principle here. Political relevance is certainly demonstrated for those with ears to hear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By VERY Concerned on Friday, February 19, 2010 - 07:47 am: Edit Post

Any news yet? I am still willing to write a letter if someone would provide me with the correct email address.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By VERY Concerned on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 06:34 pm: Edit Post

I am feeling like a broken record. Should I figure there is nothing more I can possibly do?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 09:13 am: Edit Post

The only thing I can think of is for you to find where the buck stops and have a talk with that person VERY Concerned.

Call and make an appointment. I'm sure you will be listened to.

A girlfriend of mine was refused a visa to the US at the embassy once, no funds, no ties, nada. She put on such a bawling that they gave the weeping 100lb gal her visa. Not a good approach here. BTW, she never overstayed.

We could do the dancing with signs at some strategic place, this seems to erect a communication barrier however. Mouth to ear and eye to eye over a cuppa is where a lot happens. Still, jumping up and down in the Kingston heat is a great cardio workout.

Then again, invite said person for a weekend to TB. A picture is worth 1K words, being there...

Priceless!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jafan on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 09:54 am: Edit Post

That looks to me more like a protection from storm, also does not stop anyone from walking the beach, but is a normal thin, people always talk about whit out know reasons and if it is your property you will protect it and do not need the community approval, I have seen what the hurracanes can do to properties there, and that type of construction is more for that


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 11:38 am: Edit Post

The picture before the construction shows a stable dune sloping gently to a sand beach Jafan. The place has been spoken of as the place where non swimmers feel safe. A haven.

The post construction picture shows naked coral with tufts of sand. Is the outside of the wall the property boundary?

If the wall stays, the sand will redistrubute, time will tell what form it will take.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 12:59 pm: Edit Post

One issue, Jafan, is that the area was a turtle nesting site, emphasis on the was since the construction has ruined it for that purpose.

Another is what the wall will do to the surrounding beaches's sand, thus affecting not only the neighbors but the entire area.

As Turey says, time will tell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jafan on Wednesday, February 24, 2010 - 06:37 pm: Edit Post

Well we all know, if is done by JASON, the SO community he helps so much on times of NEED, will always see something wrong. And others not really from THERE. Nature is changing all over the world, it has is way of working out. What we need more is LOVE, stop the fights and envy. How prepared are we for a bad storm, our roads are ready?, see Haiti.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By sentry on Thursday, February 25, 2010 - 11:16 am: Edit Post

Respectfully Jafan, this is not about "who" but rather about "what". The what here is the wall, not personalities. Let's not lose the forest for the trees. If we lose focus, then we lose any possibility of removing or even altering the wall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scream on Friday, February 26, 2010 - 11:19 am: Edit Post

Sentry is right. That Jason's company built the wall is not at all the point or the focus. Some of us would have hoped someone as involved with the community as Jason is might have turned the work down but he has a right to make money as much as the next person does. Thinking Jason should not have built the wall is not realistic and it would not have stopped the wall from being built. The point is IT IS A BLOODY SHAME THE WALL WAS DESIGNED AND BUILT BY ANYONE. OUR ENVIRONMENTAL LAWS ARE FAR TOO LAX. UNTIL THAT IS CORRECTED WE WILL CONTINUE TO SEE THINGS LIKE THE WALL BEING BUILT ALL OVER TREASURE BEACH. Sorry for the all caps. I DO feel like screaming.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Abroad on Wednesday, March 03, 2010 - 11:19 pm: Edit Post

I cannot believe Jason Henzel is the developer [edited by TB.Net] of this project.I am disappointed because I thought he would try to protect the natural beauty and the environment of Treasure Beach.I know his company is in the business to make money but there are some projects you cannot accept.I think people of Treasure Beach and all well thinking people should go to the Black River Parish Council and demonstrate.The Parish Council in Black River seems stagnant. Is Jeremy Palmer-Chairman/Mayor of Black River the councillor for the Treasure Beach area? Has anybody seen or heard anything from him? What about Dr. Tufton?He was like a resident of the area a few years ago. Is he still visible? I hope they are in contact with the people and listening to their issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Thursday, March 04, 2010 - 02:47 pm: Edit Post

How about inviting the Parish Council for tea and drinks one Saturday afternoon?

Perfect place for a chat.

Were I subject to being demonstrated on, I would probably batten the hatches. Open doors are best for all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By S. Smith on Thursday, March 04, 2010 - 11:15 pm: Edit Post

Yes Turey, you are absolutely right.Dialogue is the normal way to do business but have you ever tried to communicate with the Black River Parish Council.If you have and succeeded, please let me in on the "know how". I have the same problem as Abroad. I have written letters, tried phone calls etc and no response. The "run around" is unbelievable. I will welcome any suggestions from just about any one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Friday, March 05, 2010 - 10:31 am: Edit Post

I've never had dealings with this council SS, I had the Kingston experience. The mode of operation you describe inhibits the proper operation of Jamaica Inc.

I see no reason for this to be accepted business practice. It would not be in any of our ventures.

We have inherited the habits of secrecy and shifting responsibility. These survival tactics were needed pre 1838, the time has long passed for us to cling to these means of dodging Bucky M.

Invite our Public Servants to a Reasoning, this separation helps no one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By To Turey on Friday, March 05, 2010 - 02:17 pm: Edit Post

YOU invite them Turey. If they come I will too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Friday, March 05, 2010 - 11:38 pm: Edit Post

Thanks TT. Spring is a good time too. Renewal.

Where would a good location be?

Security, shelter/seating, food and drinks.

Not to push it, but a weekend retreat would be good.

Simple, respectful and enjoyable.

Any ideas? And; why not?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Idea on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 06:07 pm: Edit Post

A good place to hold this dialogue would be in the shadow of the wall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Sunday, March 07, 2010 - 11:53 pm: Edit Post

Right idea Idea! The real shadow is the ghost of what was. I'm glad you came up with that, if I hosted it in my lizard haven most ladies would not come, that would dull the proceedings.

A walk through the untouched areas would be a nice after lunch exercise.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Native on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 10:54 pm: Edit Post

To: The Black River Parish Council
Parts of our National Anthem -Eternal Father, Bless our Land, Keep us free from evil powers,Be our light through countless hours,Grant true wisdom from above,Justice,truth be ours forever, Jamaica, land we love Teach us true respect for all,Stir response to duty's call, Strengthen us the weak to cherish, Give us vision lest we perish, Knowledge send us Heavenly Father, Grant true wisdom from above,Justice truth be ours forever, Jamaica land we love


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger duRand on Tuesday, March 16, 2010 - 09:51 pm: Edit Post

Would someone please let me know what, if any, construction activity has recently taken place at the Bicknell 'wall' project in Old Wharf? I would greatly appreciate the update!
Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turtle on Tuesday, March 16, 2010 - 09:00 pm: Edit Post

R.I.P. old Old Wharf.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.I.P.? on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 10:12 am: Edit Post

Did something else happen on Old Wharf in addition to the wall?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By X-com on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 05:02 pm: Edit Post

No further construction has taken place at the Wall project. I agree with 'turtle'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cindy on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 06:54 pm: Edit Post

Jamaica's beaches in danger, says UN expert

BY KIMMO MATTHEWS Observer staff reporter matthewsk@jamaicaobserver.com

Wednesday, March 17, 2010



A United Nations environmental expert is predicting that several beaches on the western end of Jamaica could be totally wiped out in the next five to 10 years if local authorities and citizens do not act now to protect the environment.

Pascal Peduzzi, head of the Early Warning Unit, United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP)/Division of Early Warning and Assessment/GRID-Europe, based his prediction on data coming out of a UNEP study on the role of the ecosystem in disaster risk reduction.

"Coming out of the study, data has been found that beaches in Negril are receding between 0.5 and one metre per year," Peduzzi told the Observer after the study was presented to the Government at the Terra Nova Hotel in Kingston recently.

According to the study, titled 'Risk and Vulnerability Assessment Methodology Development Project (RiVAMP) -- The Case of Jamaica', scientific evidence shows that over the past 40 years, Negril's beaches have been experiencing severe and irreversible shoreline erosion and retreat.

"Bloody Bay in the northern section of Negril has experienced lower erosion rates than Long Bay, with sections of Long Bay beach without coral reef cover showing higher rates of erosion," the study said. "The highest erosion rates have occurred after 1991, when beach recovery after storms has been slower, and these trends are likely to continue. It is expected that long-term sea level rise, changing patterns of tropical storms and cyclones in the region (in terms of both frequency and intensity), diminishing sand supplies due to coastal ecosystem degradation as well as coastal development will exert an even higher toll on Negril's beaches."

According to Peduzzi, not only were these findings a cause for concern, but there was a strong belief that other areas across the country could be experiencing the same problem.

UNEP said bad environmental and building practices, and illegal dumping of pollutants in the sea were killing sea grass and coral reefs, thus reducing their effectiveness in protecting the beaches from eroding.

According to UNEP, the ecosystem in Jamaica, like many other countries in the world, was under serious threat.

"This is why it is very important for citizens and leaders to come together to do what they can to address the problem," said one UNEP official who did not disclose his name.

UNEP said that one-third of coral reefs and mangroves, two of the world's rarest ecosystems, are already seriously damaged with some countries having already lost much more.

The international body added that "global forest cover in 2005 was estimated to be just less than four billion hectares or 30 per cent of total land area. Ecosystems decline is primarily driven by human-induced activities, such as deforestation, over-fishing, land conversion, poor waste management and tourism. As ecosystems degrade, so do the multiple services they provide to sustain life, livelihoods and human well-being".

According to UNEP, "the increasing frequency and intensity of disasters, both natural and man-made, are resulting in significant social, economic and environmental losses, which further strain ecosystems to restore, protect and maintain livelihoods affected by these extreme events. In addition, climate change can exacerbate ecosystems degradation as a result of sea level rise, increase in global temperatures and changing patterns of hydro-meteorological hazards such as tropical cyclones, wild fires and drought".

Experts also say ecosystems degradation often takes place over a short time span, and its main cause is generally localised and human-induced.

The solutions to these threats to ecosystems can therefore be locally driven and made possible.

According to Peduzzi government in Jamaica in recent times was getting more involved in trying to address the situation, but more was needed.

UNEP collaborated with the Government through the Planning Institute of Jamaica to carry out work on the project.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turtle on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 08:10 pm: Edit Post

Very interesting Cindy. Thanks for sharing. Nothing new happened R.I.P.; IT'S ALREADY HAPPENED.
Can anyone say what is the condition of the reef stretching from Old Wharf to Herman Bay (the lower Great Bay shore)? I remember as a young boy, we had to step gingerly on the reef because there were so many sea urchins hidden in the seaweed just waiting to give us a foot injection. Lobsters and octopuses (octopi?)scurried away under the nearest hideaway as we approached, and a wide variety of coral occupied the reef.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ? on Monday, March 22, 2010 - 06:20 pm: Edit Post

Is anything happening with the wall or the rest of that property. If not does anyone know when a go or no go decision will be made?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 06:21 pm: Edit Post

I have been checking on this decision pretty much every week - no one can say when a decision might be made. Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cindy on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 07:07 am: Edit Post

Is there not a 90-day decision limit or am I thinking of something totally different?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Diana McCaulay on Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 04:13 pm: Edit Post

There's a 90 day "limit" - it's really more of a target - for processing of building applications and environmental permits but it does not include an appeal. I am not aware of any time frame for an appeal to be decided.
Diana from JET


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Up Against The Wall on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 - 05:49 pm: Edit Post

No news yet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peepin on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 01:15 pm: Edit Post

Everyday there's no news is a good day. It means the wall hasn't been built.....yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wake Up on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 02:31 pm: Edit Post

peepin - You missed something. The wall is built. It is there and there are photos posted on this site. The question is - will more people be able to to this? Is anyone paying attention to the environment? Will the people who built the wall build something equally unsustainable? Does anyone care enough to stop this wild irresponsible development?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peepin on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 09:20 pm: Edit Post

Thank you for waking me up Wake Up. I thought the pictures were of an unfinished wall which was stopped due to the public outcry. Well then,let's get some news.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By It Is Built on Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 07:33 pm: Edit Post

How about the question is: Will any legal entity force something to be done to the wall that is ALREADY BUILT--or will it remain until after we are all long gone?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By out yah on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 11:12 am: Edit Post

Wha'gwaan ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carlton Reynolds on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 06:52 pm: Edit Post

What happened? Silence since April. Not one post.Wha it just ded so? Sir Bowl I thought you were more sensitive to these matters. Is there another thread ? I hope so, because if this is how it ends...foosh or toosh I am greatly disappointed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By turey on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 08:10 am: Edit Post

The PM sent the Great Wall back to our Parish Council and they approved it. Is there a higher authority? One that does not receive prayers!

I hear that planting of appropriate species was done on the wall, that should soften it's presence and encourage animals. Is there still a place to facilitate non swimmers as there was pre wall?

Please keep eyes out for a second Not So Great Wall. Catch em before they spread eh.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeanie on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 10:12 pm: Edit Post

let them wi eyes see, and them wi ears to hear