I'll try again, maybe this time it will get postet

In response to this letter (immediately below) please see today's letter from Andreas Oberli (underneath). Well done, Andreas!


Time for crocodile cull

The Gleaner | January 1, 2010

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20100101/cleisure/cleisure3.html

The crocodile population in Jamaica is seriously getting out of control. We're at the stage now where the Government, through the minister with responsibility for the environment, should order a major cull of the reptiles that serve absolutely no purpose for Jamaica or Jamaicans.

Lloyd Walters

wally41@ymail.com

Leytonstone, London, England



Leave the crocs alone

Published: Tuesday | January 5, 2010

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20100105/letters/letters8.html

The Editor, Sir:

I refer to the letter by Lloyd Walters, published in The Gleaner on January 1, entitled 'Time for crocodile cull'.

Unfortunately, some members of our society still believe it is OK to kill crocodiles. The crocodile is a protected species under the Wildlife Protection Act, and persons found guilty of killing or capturing the animals can be fined $100,000 or sentenced to up to a year in jail.

The status of our crocodile population is not easy to assess but indications - based on scientific evidence from the University of the West Indies and National Environment and Planning Agency - are that the species is declining, rather than growing, in numbers. Reasons for this are continued killing and conversion of crocodile habitats into development areas (housing, hotels, etc.), the latter destroying nesting areas.

Recent evidence

Recent evidence of this are two crocodile skins hanging in a tree in somebody's yard on Parottee Road, outside Black River, and a dead croc, with a bashed-in skull, on the Long Bay beach in Manchester (Canoe Valley). Crocodiles get shot regularly at Parottee. At the same time, the wetlands on the opposite side of the road are filled in with marl for roadside shops, bars and hotels, slowly destroying this incredibly rich ecosystem which is also an important bird area.

Last Saturday morning, a large croc of at least 10 feet came up on what is left of the Old Wharf beach in Treasure Beach, passed the Bicknell sea wall, climbed over the sand dune and went through the bulldozed building sites down into the Great Pedro Pond. This is normal crocodile movement which can be observed all along the south coast, something with which most local people in Treasure Beach have no problem.

The problem is that we move into crocodile areas with our housing schemes and hotels and, since crocodiles are territorial, they tend to stay there. The solution is to share the land, leave the ponds intact and keep corridors open between the beaches and the ponds. Crocodiles do not usually attack people, as long as they don't interfere with them, nor goats or any other domestic animals. I have seen goats grazing a few feet from basking crocs in Treasure Beach, and puppies playing mock attack games with crocs on the Parottee beach to the amusement of our children and foreign visitors. Crocodiles feed on fish (preferably sick or dead), shore birds, the occasional slider turtle, and whatever dead gets thrown into the water. They keep ponds and rivers clean.

I am, etc.,

ANDREAS OBERLI

PO Box 274

Liguanea

Kingston 6

Thank you Andreas. I wonder if that is the same croc that passed one the night at Ital Rest.

We were chatting after supper and heard what we assumed was a kind of hoarse dog bark. Brutus laughed and told us a croc was passing. As if it was nothing extraordinary.

Baboo near Packie Creek can tell you stories of crocs in the ponds before the war.

If I remember correctly iguanas are mentioned as a food source for the English soldiers in the area in the 17th C. Make sense as they are still in Healthshire.

Best wishes.

Just as an FYI, this was the first posting we saw of this article.

Please make sure you go through all steps, including writing the message, previewing it, then submitting it.

TB.Net,
thanks a lot, maybe C&W was the culprit, as a lot of mail has been getting lost.

Sad news turey. Babu passed a few months ago. We thought he'd outlast us all but, alas, he's no longer with us.

Turey,
If you are referring to Baboo (Ralph Smith) then I am very sorry to inform you that he passed away late last year.

Thank you, Andreas, for caring so much about protecting the environment. You are to be applauded for taking the time and effort to actually do something and for stating your name in a newspaper. There are too many people who complain about things to their friends but do not have the courage of their convictions to say things in public. We need more people like you to help protect our land and waters--and the creatures that inhabit them.

My respects and condolences to his family.

I will miss our early morning chats.

I have never seen a crocodile in TB in the relatively short time I lived there, but I have heard so many stories of them being spotted recently. This suggest that the population is growing. People are trying to pretend that they are harmless. Just wait until someone is attacked by a hungry croc. We shouldn't kill for killing's sake, but the argument, about man moving into wildlife's territory, is easy for people who are removed from the areas to make. PETA comes to mind..they think that rats have rights,and were upset when President Obama was seen on TV. swatting at a fly which was bothering him!!Culling is a vital part of preserving protected species. The most important part of the animal/people equation is the people. Too many crocs less fish for the people.
Many times the people who care most about animal rights couldn't give a [edited by TB.Net] about suffering people!
Extremism is bad in any form.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say here Carlton. I have seen crocodiles in Frenchman washed down the river into the sea when there has been a lot of rain. So when they are spotted and captured they should be killed instead of taken back to the river???

Well, I am trying to say is ; we were given dominion over animals,which means they are here for our benefit and not the other way around. Crocs have no natural enemies except us, and if they are being protected from us,the population will expand to a point where culling becomes necessary. Lots of people like croc meat, why not start a farm with those that stray into our habitat?
If the world does not end soon,as many people think it will, then eventually man will have used up more of the "animals'domain",and some animals will be displaced! We should treat our animals with respect,but we should not become enslaved to there needs over ours.
I have seen postings elsewhere on this site, suggesting that the crocs are coming to nest in the Great Pond area,if that were true, wouldn't there be young ones around? I think also,that this area is not suitable for nesting.
Should we kill them UK Jean? Maybe..if we have to!

Crocodiles are endangered species, protected under both local and international laws. Killing them, harming them or being in possession of any part of a crocodile is an offence under Jamaica's Wildlife Protection Act. "Dominion" does not mean the right to exterminate - it means stewardship and care. We share the planet with plants and animals and without them, human beings could not survive. There have been three confirmed killings by crocs in the past 20 years in Jamaica - many more people have been killed by dogs. Our reaction to reptiles in general is largely a cultural construct and is not grounded in any real threat.
Diana from JET

My late uncle Jim 'Baba' Gore kept crocs as guards in his used car business on Hagley Park Road in the 50's. They were well fed so ignored us as we romped around them.

His partner later, Ross Kananga, started the croc entertainment in Falmouth. Ross had deep scars where his pet cougar scratched him in play.

CR, croc guard reptiles would be in great demand. I'm sure a special license is gettable. I'll train the crocs if you do the rest.....???

Wild hogs at customs may smell out things too! No license there.

To: Diana

A crocodile was captured in Great Bay about 3 months ago, and burned to death.
What can be done to educate those ignorant both of the value of crocodiles and the law?

I've called a few folks in Great Bay and they had not heard of this. Did you actually see this happening? Was there a reason why they burned it, like was it sick or something?

There can be no possible justification for burning a live crocodile, if this in fact occurred.

What needs to be done? A raft of things - crocodile sanctuaries declared, a smart, targeted public education campaign, not just to the general public, but to the media and to decision makers, swift, strong enforcement action that is publicized etc.

WILL any of this be done? Doubtful. That's why we have so many environmental problems in Jamaica.

Diana from JET

A local re-education on croc behaviour would help. A pamphlet on the cautions would be a start. I'm sure the old people knew how to live around them. I have not heard of any croc attacks in TB. Anyone heard otherwise.?

"crocodile sanctuaries", where? land is a premium.
"smart, targeted public education campaign" who's gonna undertake that, Jet?
Doesn't look like these book solutions can be applied to our country.
The turtle is harmless and we soon will have destroyed it's habitat in TB, with tacit support from our area leaders. The croc is feared and mostly unloved, and it should be protected? That's a hard sell to most people. Maybe someone with land to spare can set up a safari. If they burned the croc in GB it's probably after it was expired.

With a crocodile, it is the law of the jungle...

I was just trying to put a perspective on the matter when I used the word 'dominion',that does not imply extermination. We need a balance and as turey suggested, we should warn people of the potential danger that crocs pose,instead of giving the impression that they are harmless. With no real study on the effects of conservation,there could be a population explosion on the way. I have heard of them turning up in very unlikely places.
We need balance..remember unintended consequences.

The reason crocodiles are turning up in unlikely places is destruction of their habitat.. that is the unintended consequence...

Diana from JET

Yes CR, I'd prefer a balance of zero human casualties to whatever number crocs have to be dealt with sensibly.

Yes Miss D...that ALSO, is an unintended consequence.
In places like Australia, they have rangers with a handle on the movements of the crocs, and they have the resources to deal with emergencies,we don't, so when people are confronted with this pre-historic beast,the adrenalin starts pumping..anything can happen.
I have seen a large number of these fellows on the bank of the swamp near the Parottee road near the round-about at Black River.
I we don't already have a way to monitor their numbers, we should consider it. Otherwise there wont be a balance

Another Phd thesis for a Biology student.

Sir turey, you see the post about a croc. on GtBay road? I hope my goat mouth didn't cause that.
Should there be some kind of caution(nothing to scare) to unwary people, that there is an odd chance they may encounter a croc.

Just back on line CR. Yes crocs around goat mouth or rain I'm not sure. Any advice on walking at night etc?

You have reminded me of a story.

A few years back my husband and I were staying at Vikings. We had spent the day at Calabash. Usually we have our flashlights but this day we didn't as we had planed on being back before nightfall. We started walking through the paths but as we got halfway through the field by the pond we found ourselves in the moonlight. No probelm, we thought, until we heard a screaming sound. It sounded like a person.

We RAN back to Kingfisher plaza, literally begging for a ride. After we told our story of walking through the field, being caught off gaurd by the night without a flashlight and hearing the screaming, the patrons of the bar started telling us "old wives tales" about how the crocs grab people from the path and eat them.

A very kind person offered us a ride and we readily accepted. The following moring we went back to explore what the screaming we heard was and we found a baby goat with his head stuck in the fence. Our friend climbed through the bushes and let the baby goat free from the fence. He had the cuts to prove it (our friend that is). The baby goat was pretty cut up to from the barbed wire. WE felt silly for being such sissies when it was just a baby goat crying but ever since then I have always thought about the tales of the crocs.

After seeing the picture of the croc by Miss Bev's in Great Bay I am leary of walking near the ponds.

I am sure the crocs are more afraid of us than we are of them (I hope) but what does one do when face to face with one? I have heard they can out run a human.

Here is a link telling you more of the American Crocodile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_crocodile

Worth noting in this link is the following:

"The species is reportedly timid, and seemingly lacks the propensity to attack humans as seriously as Old World crocodiles can."

Of course, my long time theory on this is the crocs grow up and live in the Black River morass which is also famous for growing a particular herb . . . Therefore, the crocs are more docile than most crocodile species.

But seriously, in my 17 years of living here I have heard of one person who was killed by a croc attacking her. She was fishing at night on the side of the Black River and the croc came up and grabbed her. The experts surmised the croc was ill, they found him and killed him.

I will also say in my limited experience, each year we have a heavy rain fall as we did this year we see a few crocs come down the sea and appear along the coastline. Once the rain stops falling - which it already has - the crocs seem to leave and go back from where they came.

I've also heard, but cannot confirm, that NEPA is actively searching Great Pond for crocodiles and removing any they find to bring them back to the Black River morass. Again, I've heard but cannot confirm a sighting of an Albino croc in a pond in Great Bay. I would love to see this croc and get a photo of it!

So, would I walk the street at night in TB right now? Absolutely! Would I walk Cobweb Lane which follows around Great Pond at night right now? Hmm, probably not as I would rather be on the safe side. Would I walk down Cobweb Lane at night in about a month from now? Sure! And I can't wait to wade around in Great Pond for those pancake seeds again in a few months time!

Just found this as well.

http://www.jamaica-star.com/thestar/20100915/news/news1.html

Again, worth noting in the article:

"When THE STAR spoke with wildlife biologist and acting Enforcement Manager of NEPA, Richard Nelson, he outlined that, "it's under very rare circumstances that crocodiles attack humans."

Nelson told THE STAR that he had made contact with Thompson who informed him that he had actually had fish attached to his waist while he continued spearfishing.

Nelson explained that the crocodile might have attacked Thompson to get the fish from his waist.

"Based on what I was told, the crocodile might have attacked the man because he was spearfishing which attracted the crocodile" Nelson said.

Nelson added that "the crocodile may have learnt that people come to the area to fish and it's a possible source of food ... it's a recipe for the animal to move in."

He said that he was impressed by the evasive action taken by Thompson to secure his escape from the crocodile.

"It is always said if a person is caught by a crocodile, it is always a good method to try and squeeze its eyes," Nelson explained."

Thanks Rebecca! You have put some of my crocodile fears at ease.
I now also know the name of the lane we walk is called Cobweb Lane and if attacked by a crocodile I should try to squeeze his eyeballs.
I am really looking forward to picking some pancake seeds. They are yummy. Are they in season in February?

Walking around day and night. Dogs, goats and mosquitos. No big lizards. Gorgeous weather, Christmas breeze soon blow.

Hey turey! You are now in TB? How long will you be keeping the mosquitoes happy? Careful, at nights you cant see the dinosaurs.
It would be my pleasure to make your acquaintance.