Is there any sort of fine for an owner taking down a good number of lignum vitae trees on private property? These trees were not diseased. They were not blocking any sort of construction. I know it is wrong to do this but I am not clear it is illegal. I would appreciate an answer from anyone familiar with the laws in Jamaica.

I hope there is a severe penalty. I hope if the person who did this said they did not know it will not matter. In America they say ignorance of the law is no excuse.

It has GOT to be illegal; this specimen is considered "potentially endangered" according to Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignum_vitae. We have got to strive to save all endangered flora and fauna on our beautiful island.

I remember as a child how beautiful the blossoms were on these trees, not to mention the little, yellow butterflies that flocked said blossoms during certain times of the year - simply stunning!

Maybe someone can search the Laws of Jamaica for anything on lignum vitae protection.

The Convention on International Trade and Endangered Species (CITES) lists lignum vitae and other related species. There are six species of the guiacum genus.

In trade guiacum officionale, our lignum vitae, is often mixed with guiacum sanctum from the Bahamas, Florida, Cuba etc. This link shows various CITES topics relating to lignum vitae.

http://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/cites?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lignum+vitae &btnG=Search

I can find nothing about the protection of the living trees only the wood for export.

I would encourage our Government to understand the importance of Ecology which includes various endangered species. The current focus appears to be Economy.

No Ecology/Environment, no Economy. Our allowed treatment of lignum vitae and turtle beaches is symptomatic of this selective focus.

I would also encourage communities to establish their own guidelines for development that threatens plants, animals and our well being. Waiting on guidance from those that show little or token interest in these things is futile and time is running out.

My rule of thumb is to plant at least a dozen trees to replace any I remove for whatever reason. I also bear responsibility for their survival to self sustainability. That could be the best penalty.

I really hope there is such a penalty for this.A noted thief [edited by TB.Net],went to our place along the hillside and stole quite a number of our Lignum Vitae trees.

Those trees you never destroy. I could use a lot more on my property in Calabash Bay. If you have some that are transferable I will gladly take them.

I wonder if it is the same thief I dealt with Upset?

The individual stole a huge millstone destined to be a magnificent outdoor stone table on my land.

I met up with said person accompanied by a JP. They told us that they rescued it from the coming hurricane and I can pay for transport to have it back. How can I lock up such a pathetic creature?

I let time deal justice.

As far as I know those trees are "protected".
Probably best person to ask would be Diana Mccauley at JET. If she does not know, then maybe she can guide you to right person or place.

So sad what is happening in the TB area ..
seems to be a rapid destruction of the very things that makes it so special.

Is this a general question or does it refer to a specific piece of property?

I'm with you there Upset. Thievees raided my father's property as well and took off with about a dozen trees, some definitely over a hundred years old. There should be stiff penalty not just for cutting trees, but this penalty should be quadrupled when it includes stealing. Love Jah and live.

Remember we discussed this at our workshop? There is no law protecting lignum vitae trees as a species. Specific trees can be protected via a Tree Preservation Order, and the Citizens Alert Group had written to the Parish Council to request that the buttonweed tree be protected - I don't know if they have had an answer, but perhaps this could be followed up.

We (those at the workshop) were also supposed to write to the Jamaica National Heritage Trust to ask if they would consider protecting lignum vitae trees under their legislation, as an important heritage resource, considering its status as our national flower. I don't think this was ever done.

CITES only regulates trade in endangered species, so is not helpful for protecting trees from being cut down by landowners.

Diana from JET

National Ecological Gap Assessment Report: Jamaica (May 2009)

As I recall, Diana McCauley (JET) has, in the past, recommended Andreas Oberli, a conservation botanist, associated with the Plant Conservation Center in Kingston & is/was the Director of the National Arboretum Foundation of Jamaica on all matters of trees, vegetation, flora.
He is an ardent plantsman, with magnificent specimens of the wide spectrum of Jamaican/Caribbean trees on his property near Irish Town above Kingston.

If you want to get a sense of Andreas' explosive passion for the environment of Jamaica, after a lifetime of global travel, study, investigation and documentation, scroll down to his contribution on Beach Policy & Access (AND THE ANSWER TO THAT LAST QUESTION IS...) on the Northern Jamaica Conservation Assoc (NJCA)ongoing chat forum on the deluge of developmental, contra-ECO issues plaguing the Rock.

www.njcatalk.wordpress.com/hot-topics/beach-policy-access/

His adventurous and tenacious personality is also on display in a Smithsonian Magazine article on Captain Bligh's sojourn in Jamaica and contributions to the Jamaica tree-scape.

www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/Captain-Blighs-Cursed-Breadfruit-Jamaica.html

Any meetings or weekend seminars that might be hosted by the denizens of TB over stewardship of the lignums, in particular, soil conservation & management, I would think would benefit from an Invitation that would include Diana McCauley (with JET's legal mojo) & the irrepressible Andreas Oberli.

I imagine a backyard gabfest open to all, by the sea, with lots of cookpots steaming away and colourful beverages to cool the peppers.

And, by the way, Mr Oberli also contributed to the Ecological Gap Report cited above...a long but worthwhile trek:

www.jamaicachm.org.jm/Document/Jamaica%20NEGAR.pdf

Miss kennedy appreciate your views on this website, don't kno u as someone born in treasurebeach maybe i'm wrong, but you seem to care more about the place, than other i see[edited by TB.Net]

National Ecological Gap Assessment Report: Jamaica (May 2009)

As I recall, Diana McCauley (JET) has, in the past, recommended Andreas Oberli, a conservation botanist, associated with the Plant Conservation Center in Kingston & is/was the Director of the National Arboretum Foundation of Jamaica on all matters of trees, vegetation, flora.
He is an ardent plantsman, with magnificent specimens of the wide spectrum of Jamaican/Caribbean trees on his property near Irish Town above Kingston.

If you want to get a sense of Andreas' explosive passion for the environment of Jamaica, after a lifetime of global travel, study, investigation and documentation, scroll down to his contribution on Beach Policy & Access (AND THE ANSWER TO THAT LAST QUESTION IS...) on the Northern Jamaica Conservation Assoc (NJCA)ongoing chat forum on the deluge of developmental, contra-ECO issues plaguing the Rock.

www.njcatalk.wordpress.com/hot-topics/beach-policy-access/

His adventurous and tenacious personality is also on display in a Smithsonian Magazine article on Captain Bligh's sojourn in Jamaica and contributions to the Jamaica tree-scape.

www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/Captain-Blighs-Cursed-Breadfruit-Jamaica.html

Any meetings or weekend seminars that might be hosted by the denizens of TB over stewardship of the lignums, in particular, soil conservation & management, I would think would benefit from an Invitation that would include Diana McCauley (with JET's legal mojo) & the irrepressible Andreas Oberli.

I imagine a backyard gabfest open to all, by the sea, with lots of cookpots steaming away and colourful beverages to cool the peppers.

And, by the way, Mr Oberli also contributed to the Ecological Gap Report cited above...a long but worthwhile trek:

www.jamaicachm.org.jm/Document/Jamaica%20NEGAR.pdf

Look forward to a gabfest/reasoning as ZED has suggested. Where better to focus on Livity than in it's midst.

Better than airconditioned torpor in a square box.

And sliding off topic.....typical eh.

Some so called Pagans, resisted coming into enclosed churches after the Sacred Groves were destroyed. They were accustomed to gathering under the eye of the sun where the light revealed all and warmed the proceedings.

The feeling was also that they could be more easily coercively influenced (Scienced) in these enclosed spaces.

What a shame there is no law. It is high time for the people of T/B to organize against this sort of activity - and more. The longer we wait the sorrier we are going to be for waiting for someone else to do something. While we sit back and complain our treasure will disappear.

With all due respect 'The time is now', this is like deja vue. People on this site keep saying that people in TB need to do this and need to do that, and nothing gets done. Few show up at the meetings. Trees. Police training, sports park, canal...the list goes on and on, but the resuilts are usually thie same. Nothing.

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/tree+bylaw+strengthens+Vancouver+enforcement+ab ility/2247577/story.html

Vancouver beat us to it.

I'm not born in Treasure Beach, but I care about the people and the environment very much. This has been my "second home" for nearly 25 years.

The land in question is the four-acre plot on the seaside in between Rainbow Tree and La Casa Duna in Billy's Bay. A large number of lignum vitae trees (and fruit trees such as soursop) were chopped down about four months ago, supposedly to make it more attractive. That land is mainly sand dune, and the dunes were flattened to a large extent by a bulldozer -- again, supposedly to make it more attractive. If you could have seen it, most especially from the sea, soon after it happened you would have been shocked. Now there is grass springing back up, but the damage to the trees, especially the ironwoods, is permanent. (Soursops, if replanted, will start bearing in three to five years.)

This plot of land is owned by a man residing in England and is being offered for sale by a real estate agent in Mandeville.

I find it a pity that what was done is not illegal.

Where is this land, Miss Kennedy?

I just looked it up, and the owner through the agent is asking $1.2 million US. She calls it "a developers dream".

This is in Billys Bay, such a beautiful and quiet portion of Treasure Beach. What a bloody and insensitive shame.

Mnken Real Estate Bill's Bay
Mnken ...could you tell this community what source you are citing for the Asking Price for the Billy's Bay property?

Is it a Coldwell Banker Sales propectus, and is the agent local?
Or, is the citation from some other source...could you give a web link?

Should the community be looking at the advice Realtors are giving to their clients as to image of salability of their properties over and above the loving nurturing of the soil and Jamaican agri-culture that nourished the caring of the massacred fruit trees including the soursop which all of us know as the nectar for calming our nerves.

Couldn't some of these trees have been burlaped & transplanted or, at minimum, offered to our local plant nurseryman, LT (Levan Taylor) for his advice and discretion? Even that might have suggested some sensitivity.

And what pray tell does a US$1.2 Asking Price of said property suggest to the National Land Agency, which sets Property Taxes, the increases that might arise for "neighbours" in the next round of Land & Tax appraisals which uses comparables in their so-called judgments?

Mnken, where did you look it up?

It is a developers dream if you say it correctly. IN YOUR DREAMS.

I know the area. We used to pick fruit and enjoy the dunes there.

Bulldozer and truck got a job. Someone may have got sand. A protective dune and the stabilising and productive trees have been removed. This is not development. This is destruction. Simple, no dodging.

It would be good to have pictures to document these acts.

If this was brought to the attention of the real estate agents, it may start a dialogue on these issues. "Clean the land" is a common and accepted practice. I guess it's those terrible lizards and 'bugs' in the trees.

And, di view!

An asking price is just that. Real estate is worth what someone is willing to pay, not what someone is asking.

Value is correct. There are many homes in TB that have been for sale for a long time. My opinion is the owners thought they were worth more than potential buyers or else they would have sold. Other homes have sold, presumably because they were priced more correctly. When someone is asking $1.2 million for 4 acres, even if you know the price is negotiable, you also suspect you might be dealing with someone who is not starting from a realistic place.

SELLING TB @ US$300,000/ACRE

Value & Price Opinion...you both have obvious points to make about variations between market conditions of any Real Estate deal.( Asking vs Selling Price)

We are all familiar with the terms Buyer's Market versus Sellers Market, in which one or the other parties is perceived to be holding the better hand.
For years before the Great Recession hit, in terms of raw land- beach front property, I would propose that the Treasure Beach coastline was experiencing a Seller's Market.

As recently as a couple years back, a Seller could easily Ask and Sell a property along the Billy's Bay-Ft Charles Rd for greater than US$150,000/Acre.

Now according to feints & hints in this thread, someone or a developer is Asking approx. US$300,000/Ac.

So ask yourself, for someone or their agents who deeply know Caribbean Real Estate...the Virgin Islands, St Lucia, Aruba, St Martins, Dominican Republic, Martinique, Anguila, Cayman, you name it, the prices of current TB properties, with its current ambience of safe tranquility might even feel like a revelation and a steal.

The patriarch of Jamaica tourism, John Issa, has often proclaimed that, in comparable Real Estate terms, Jamaica's properties are very underpriced.
He wasn't just talking about well regarded values in locations such as Pt Antonio.

One just needs to look at the precipitous rise of the US stock market & others to realize that not everyone is suffering during this economic downturn. The titans & their minions are again ascendent.

Could someone in the community, or the Realtor handling the transaction, cite the Realtor's link which lists this property that has been denuded of many of its Lignums, possibly showing the IMAGE OF TREASURE BEACH that is being projected on the Global Real Estate Market.

So sorry there are no fines for taking down these trees. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. From what I gather property owners have a right to clear their land as they see fit or build whatever they wish on it so long as the structures are not too close to the road and have proper septic systems. Good taste cannot be mandated. And who among us thinks they have bad taste?

To bad trees can't talk, they would tell you just how bad the situation on this planet is. I'm baffled how we keep selling ourselves closer to extinction. No trees no air. We the people are the greatest threat to the planet and beyond. I would love to be more positive but we are not learning from mistakes nor will we ever learn.
KISS IT GOOD BYE BECAUSE WE ARE SEEING THE LAST OF. The alarm bell has been ringing for to long and nature will soon dispose of us.
GET IT TOGETHER U. Wait until we find out its too late, we do that so well.

This price/value thing is intriguing. It sounds as if everyone who has made a comment regarding it has something valid to say. I am guessing Mr. Ward is engaged in the practice of real estate. His suggestion of $150,000 an acre for good beachfront property in Treasure Beach meshes with what I know some parcels have been sold for. An acre of good property not on the beachfront would have sold for roughly $60,000 an acre. Following that reasoning/recent history, it might make sense for someone to buy one of the beachfront homes or villas for sale and bulldoze the improvements for the value of the land.

I do not think the cost of land in TB can possibly compared with that in a place like MoBay where beachfront land is selling by the running foot. That's like comparing the cost of land in New York City to that in rural South Dakota.

any beholder who cant see the beauty of Lignum vitae trees simply can't see. we need laws to make it mandatory for property owners to seek permission to cut down these trees. what is needed is regulation and heavy fines for breaches of these regulations

Two questions (OK, three):

1) How hard/easy is it to grow lignum vitae trees?

2) Are they started nursery-style with seeds, or only with seedlings? If seeds, can they be purchased from local plant nurseryman Mr LT (LeVan Taylor)?

Hello Mr Ellis, the seeds planted in a pot with soil will germinate and give a tree ready for transplanting in a few months with the usual care. Mr Taylor can probably give you more accurate times.

Seedlings taken from the earth rarely survive if taken when they are too old, unless the whole seed ball is taken and the area well watered before taking up the young tree.

I'm not sure how long the seeds are viable for. Seed collection from all the populations should be encouraged. Are the white flowering trees different to the blue flowering? I have seen a cut trunk of lignum around four (4) feet across in Kingston. Most are now either resting in dumps or ghosts of the charcoal they were reduced to.

I'm glad to hear of interest in lignum. Selling clean seeds in packets is an idea. It could be an income for someone. Millions of seeds are swept away in season right through the South Coast.

Does anyone know if lignum durum is another name fom lignum vitae or is it another tree?

Lignum Durum is Sloanea jamaicensis

All trees are beautiful, even more the Lignum, when full of buterfly,,,the only bad thing for ME is the worms, I do not like them AT ALL, but it passes, so I wait....

to: visitor.
the tree need the worms to go through the cycle and become butterflies - therein lies its beauty.

i have seen lignum vitae trees being destroyed by those who know better and know also it is against the law. But they seem to be above the law.

I do know that, that is way even though I do not like them, I donīt hert them, Jamaica is a beautiful place, nature is so relaxing, I do leve it....take care

Is Anyone nterested in buying some lignum vitae branches I must cut a part of this tree with deep regrets. They are used fro carving so I must sell them also.

People need to stop offering the less fortunate money to go on other people land and get stuff to sell to them. Does not matter what it is I saw it with my own eyes in Frenchman. Too much muckery going on in Treasure Beach.

Chop their hands off I say - only jesting!